"The New Metrobus?"

[Tristan]

And aznboy, you have a valid point, a really valid point, one that is wise to consider.  However, if WMATA doesn't improve their service, the investment in "new New Look" buses will be in vain because they'll come out to see it but then get turned right back off.

Look at the 30 line -- even after the restructuring, it is still plagued with bunching.  AND IT GETS DE42LFAs ALL THE TIME!  Yet you have people who saw or heard the ads and the buses who then checked the schedule, came out for a ride, and waited...and waited...and waited...20 minutes, 30 minutes, I get comments about it all the time!  Then THREE LFAs pull up at once!  The NEW METROBUS??? Give me a break!  It's just like the OLD Metrobus, except with fancy vehicles now, I'm getting back in my car!

One day at DASH, I actually dealt with a Metro employee who could ride Metrobus to work for free but pays to take DASH instead, because she knows the bus is going to be on time and be clean and she's gonna get where she's going...and all we have is boring ass Orion Vs and Gillig Phantom boxes.  Not saying we're better than Metro, so don't trip, but I'm just saying - these LFAs aren't gonna do the trick if they don't step up their game.

The only way to really solve it is to do what Circulator does and have supervisors on the route making sure buses are spaced out. 

[Annex4421]

And aznboy, you have a valid point, a really valid point, one that is wise to consider.  However, if WMATA doesn't improve their service, the investment in "new New Look" buses will be in vain because they'll come out to see it but then get turned right back off.

Look at the 30 line -- even after the restructuring, it is still plagued with bunching.  AND IT GETS DE42LFAs ALL THE TIME!  Yet you have people who saw or heard the ads and the buses who then checked the schedule, came out for a ride, and waited...and waited...and waited...20 minutes, 30 minutes, I get comments about it all the time!  Then THREE LFAs pull up at once!  The NEW METROBUS??? Give me a break!  It's just like the OLD Metrobus, except with fancy vehicles now, I'm getting back in my car!

One day at DASH, I actually dealt with a Metro employee who could ride Metrobus to work for free but pays to take DASH instead, because she knows the bus is going to be on time and be clean and she's gonna get where she's going...and all we have is boring ass Orion Vs and Gillig Phantom boxes.  Not saying we're better than Metro, so don't trip, but I'm just saying - these LFAs aren't gonna do the trick if they don't step up their game.

The only way to really solve it is to do what Circulator does and have supervisors on the route making sure buses are spaced out.

So what? thats one lady's opinion, I'm so sick of people downing WMATA like other buses don't be late, you brag so much about DASH but look who catches a WMATA bus hmmm nothing personal but its kinda hypicritical to me. Maybe you should consider the fact that maybe it isn't WMATA's fault that their service is bad maybe they did it becasue of other cutthroat agencies in the area. And who said the new buses can actually improve service. I rode DASH buses a couple time and I'LL admit they do be clean and prompt, and WMATA is not to blame for buses being late you forget there is a world going on out here and things happen traffic accidents, bus failures, emergencies etc not to mention slow people who don't want to do there part so that messes it up for everybody. WMATA can step up into stilettos all I care but I bet my life the same things happen over and over again. So what's to complain about again?

[Annex4421]

No I take that back WMATA is kinda at fault because of the drivers they hire some of them are the reason the buses are late and then how the buses run in most areas is terrible but I wonder does the government have something to do with it also, the 30s seem fine to me (I don't know where you've been) just like where I live sometimes three M6 buses come at the same time but comming from someone who lives on the line traffic is to blame because it gets backed up during rush hour. Downtown gets backed up almost all the time so like I stated don't blame WMATA for everything because things happen out of WMATA's control. So if you don't like how public transportaion runs then DON'T RIDE IT, otherwise deal with it don't talk if you don't want to do anything about it to change it.

[aznboy4305]

Wayne-

I see what you're saying, but that's the same with any advertisement. When I or most people see a commercial for a Hyundai Genesis during the Super Bowl, I don't go out and buy one right away. Great commercial, I'll forget about it as soon as the next commercial starts. Hell, I bet most of the people who saw those commercials don't buy one anytime in the immediate future either. But does that mean Hyundai made an unwise decision to spend $1.whatever Million dollars on a 30 second ad? If and when I decide to go out and buy a new car sometime far ahead into the future, Hyundai won't pop up into my mind as a company that sells complete junk that I absolutely despise. They might actually have a CHANCE to get looked at since I won't automatically think Hyundai = Ugly ass POS that I otherwise wouldn't even give a crap about, all due to an advertisement campaign. 

When gas prices went up to $4 a gallon, your average Joe or Jane who has driven everywhere her entire life and has never stepped foot on transit, will start considering of ways to save money on gas. But she might not even THINK of transit when the only mental image she has of transit is an old dirty bus riddled with crime and "those" people. She MIGHT actually think about transit, or at least consider it enough to pick up a schedule and explore her options if she never had that default "bus = the devil" image stuck to the back of her head. And trust me I see a LOTTT of that stereotype out here.


Tristan-

I don't think I've ever rode the "new and improved 30/Metro" or whatever they dub it now. From what it sounds (and it sounds like it hasn't changed at all), Metro needs to get their act up in operations and perhaps scheduling. I just never really understood how equipment and image related service levels, they're actually two completely different departments. I was just saying that just because operations is screwing up or service is just awful, marketing shouldn't stop doing what its does. They each have their own mission and purpose, and the poor performance of one isn't usually BECAUSE of what the other is doing. Is WMATA putting the LFAs out there and calling that a "New and Improved" MetroBus in itself? Maybe I'm just misunderstanding the basis of these complaints to begin with.

[79MetroExtraMD]

Wayne-

I see what you're saying, but that's the same with any advertisement. When I or most people see a commercial for a Hyundai Genesis during the Super Bowl, I don't go out and buy one right away. Great commercial, I'll forget about it as soon as the next commercial starts. Hell, I bet most of the people who saw those commercials don't buy one anytime in the immediate future either. But does that mean Hyundai made an unwise decision to spend $1.whatever Million dollars on a 30 second ad? If and when I decide to go out and buy a new car sometime far ahead into the future, Hyundai won't pop up into my mind as a company that sells complete junk that I absolutely despise. They might actually have a CHANCE to get looked at since I won't automatically think Hyundai = Ugly ass POS that I otherwise wouldn't even give a crap about, all due to an advertisement campaign. 

When gas prices went up to $4 a gallon, your average Joe or Jane who has driven everywhere her entire life and has never stepped foot on transit, will start considering of ways to save money on gas. But she might not even THINK of transit when the only mental image she has of transit is an old dirty bus riddled with crime and "those" people. She MIGHT actually think about transit, or at least consider it enough to pick up a schedule and explore her options if she never had that default "bus = the devil" image stuck to the back of her head. And trust me I see a LOTTT of that stereotype out here.


Tristan-

I don't think I've ever rode the "new and improved 30/Metro" or whatever they dub it now. From what it sounds (and it sounds like it hasn't changed at all), Metro needs to get their act up in operations and perhaps scheduling. I just never really understood how equipment and image related service levels, they're actually two completely different departments. I was just saying that just because operations is screwing up or service is just awful, marketing shouldn't stop doing what its does. They each have their own mission and purpose, and the poor performance of one isn't usually BECAUSE of what the other is doing. Is WMATA putting the LFAs out there and calling that a "New and Improved" MetroBus in itself? Maybe I'm just misunderstanding the basis of these complaints to begin with.

As for scheduling, they really need to do something about that, but yet, it's Trapeze. Even Adam told me it was crap to deal with. I've seen the paddles and such and yea, they suck. For a system like Metro with the different kind of service patterns and such, it seems like HASTUS might have worked (look at LA, Chicago, and NYC).

Then again, DC is a traffic hell. Everything is unpredictable especially when you have MD and VA folks coming into the same areas and with so many different ways in and out of the city alongside busy transit routes, scheduling just can't come close to how it is.

As for the new and improved 30s, the 37 and 39 pretty much are probably what they are referring to, but the 32 and 36 are just still slow. I do wish the 37 ran all day. I heard alot of people want that (I just can't stand tourists in Georgetown and everybody trying to park).

[btconet]

I'll just add these little bits about the 30 line as it relates to the topic of Scheduling that is near and dear to my heart.

It's my general belief that longer lines, especially a line that has traffic congestion in one or more areas is NEVER going to be able to be scheduled in a punctual manner, particularly if the rider demand on that corridor warrants 15 minute or better headways.

Since the traffic conditions are so variable and the length of the line is so long whereas the likelihood to encounter (or not encounter) such delays is so varied, the ability to create a punctual schedule is pretty much impossible.  Add demand variances and/or ramp usage, and a schedule becomes only a best guess.  Scheduling Software is not going to make or break that challenge in nearly every case, whether it be Trapeze, Hastus, Init, or whatever.  Even if you pad the layover on every block at FH to be 20+ minutes to try to ensure ontime departures, you still wind up with NBs (and SBs) coming through G-town in packs as the factors start to play at the OTP.

The point of my rant is that Looooooooong bus lines to me are of faulty design.  Yeah, gosh golly, Politicians are fine with them because they are less likely to hear the sob story of the guy with the walker who has to get off and cross the street to wait for another bus to take him where he wants to go, as longer lines are more likely to accomodate a greater number of one seat rides.  As a result, agencies like them because on paper, they look "cheap" since that one route does it all, where two routes would likely have to overlap unless there was a clear cut breaking point in the line. 

However, you get what you pay for, and the result is lines like the 30's, that are prone to bunching after long waits.  The flaws are in the design, but without a dedicated effort to revamp the route, folks will continue to wait extra time for that one seat ride, when they could have been to their destination with a transfer.

Of course this could all be part of that ploy aimed at cutt.... never mind.

As for the original "debate," I tend to side that an LFA adds little to no appeal over an LFR, which to me is the model that offers the balance point between sensible and practical.  I also have my concerns as to which of the two will look more appealing in 6-8 years of equal levels of TLC.

[Tristan]

Annex4421, I take metrobus at times because my company and WMATA actually have worked together on scheduling two similar routes to arrive between each other, instead of TheBus style  arriving one behind the other...and the WMATA bus just happens to be the one scheduled to arrive as I'm getting off from work.  Also, I take transit because a) I work in transit, in an administrative 9ish to 5ish position, and I believe more transit employees should use their service when possible, b) I live in the same city where I work...so I either take two buses home or two buses and a train for 1 stop, depending on transfer conditions...it generally takes abt 20-35 mins to get home -- it could be better but it's not too bad...and c) after rent, groceries, bills, etc, I can't afford a car...so what should I do, walk??

And I fully understand traffic conditions and whatnot leading to delays because I work in transit and I see what happens...but when you have the same bus 20 mins late every day, something needs to change and the average customer who has a choice is gonna give up taking that bus. Whether it's a V, VI, LFA, BRT, or whatever...so without fixing the service, the LFA is a waste of money if it's solely for marketing purposes.

[LandoverDivision]

Annex4421, I take metrobus at times because my company and WMATA actually have worked together on scheduling two similar routes to arrive between each other, instead of TheBus style  arriving one behind the other...and the WMATA bus just happens to be the one scheduled to arrive as I'm getting off from work.  Also, I take transit because a) I work in transit, in an administrative 9ish to 5ish position, and I believe more transit employees should use their service when possible, b) I live in the same city where I work...so I either take two buses home or two buses and a train for 1 stop, depending on transfer conditions...it generally takes abt 20-35 mins to get home -- it could be better but it's not too bad...and c) after rent, groceries, bills, etc, I can't afford a car...so what should I do, walk??

And I fully understand traffic conditions and whatnot leading to delays because I work in transit and I see what happens...but when you have the same bus 20 mins late every day, something needs to change and the average customer who has a choice is gonna give up taking that bus. Whether it's a V, VI, LFA, BRT, or whatever...so without fixing the service, the LFA is a waste of money if it's solely for marketing purposes.

Isn't the LFA here for environmental purposes too? At least you don't have wait on average an hour for a bus. People here would kill to have service like the REX or VA service (sort of) period. You whine and complain about a bus that's 20 minutes late but we have to deal with service way worse than that over here. "All we got is REX" Do you know how bad we need something like the REX over here? Then you go complaining about good buses. Remind you we have HDXs over here but do you see me moanin and complaining about them? No because they get me home everyday. I'd be one of the last people to complain about them. And I don't know what bus you catch that's 20 min late everyday. For someone who depends on Metro to get home everyday, you sure do a lot of complaining and you put down Metro a lot.

So what let the bus be late you gettin' home aren't you? Otherwise you would be walking then you only have yourself to blame. If you want a car go to an auction. Save up for one take at least like $10 or $20 out your check every week. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices to get things.

[OrionFlyer]

As for the new and improved 30s, the 37 and 39 pretty much are probably what they are referring to, but the 32 and 36 are just still slow. I do wish the 37 ran all day. I heard alot of people want that (I just can't stand tourists in Georgetown and everybody trying to park).

What about the 31 and 34. Don't they provide any relief?

[btconet]

Isn't the LFA here for environmental purposes too? At least you don't have wait on average an hour for a bus. People here would kill to have service like the REX or VA service (sort of) period. You whine and complain about a bus that's 20 minutes late but we have to deal with service way worse than that over here. "All we got is REX" Do you know how bad we need something like the REX over here? Then you go complaining about good buses. Remind you we have HDXs over here but do you see me moanin and complaining about them? No because they get me home everyday. I'd be one of the last people to complain about them. And I don't know what bus you catch that's 20 min late everyday. For someone who depends on Metro to get home everyday, you sure do a lot of complaining and you put down Metro a lot.

So what let the bus be late you gettin' home aren't you? Otherwise you would be walking then you only have yourself to blame. If you want a car go to an auction. Save up for one take at least like $10 or $20 out your check every week. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices to get things.

I think you sort of substantiate the point being driven home among many here.

If WMATA's service levels and dependability are such that people will only use it if they have to, and will actively strive to find a way to abandon it at their first opportunity, then pimped out LFAs or "sexy NABIs" or whatever won't make a difference.

The more you travel, the more you actually encounter places where transit INCLUDING BUSES is not the means of last resort or the "loser cruiser," but actually a viable and competitive alternative to driving that manages to bring a more accurate cross section of the cities they service, and not just transit reliant passengers who simply take what they are given all the while seeking an escape from using it.  Sometimes, the variation from city to city can be dramatic.

If people are supposed to be simply resigned to "take it or leave it" and "stop whining" since "if you don't like it, buy a car," then a system will never be more than a means of last resort with an indifferent customer base. The powers that be who should be making policy decisions that improve this service will then ignore the more pressing and relavent service issues, while performing the flashy "window dressing improvements" of the cool looking new vehicle to show the media their commitment to transit, and nothing else.

[Tritransit Area]

If people are supposed to be simply resigned to "take it or leave it" and "stop whining" since "if you don't like it, buy a car," then a system will never be more than a means of last resort with an indifferent customer base. The powers that be who should be making policy decisions that improve this service will then ignore the more pressing and relavent service issues, while performing the flashy "window dressing improvements" of the cool looking new vehicle to show the media their commitment to transit, and nothing else.

YES!  However, it takes more than an agency's management to make a system work in both image and reliability to entice and keep riders.

[WES]

A few things noone has ever mentioned is WMATA is paid for by our tax dollars.  And when everyone is cursing the fact that tax dollars are wasted on extravagent expenditures, making the LFA purchase with our tax dollars would seem wasteful.  If you are one of those people who are complaining about where your tax dollars are going, that we are paying too much money in taxes, which are being wasted on useless government programs and you think that the LFAs was money well spent, you could be considered a hypocrite.  As many have said as a busfan having a diverse fleet is a dream, but if it means paying around $20,000 more per bus just to have the LFA package as compared to have  a LFR package and not make a difference in fuel savings and ridership increases, having that LFA package would be a waste.

Now the one thing that makes the LFA probably not a waste is how aerodynamic that the bus is compared to the LFR package, and yes including the wheelcovers (ugh).   The more aerodynamic a bus is made, the better the fuel savings based on how less wind resistant it is.  Even though they look more aerodynamic it may look, would that make up the difference compared to the materials used to make that extra foot of bus.  Are the materials lighter on the LFA compared to the materials used on the LFR package make a difference in fuel savings.  Unless there is evidence to sway my opinion in either direction, I can't form real opinion of whether the LFAs would have been a waste of money compared to if WMATA bought the LFR instead.

If it's to attract riders, having a sleek, streamlined looking bus isn't going to get that car driver to choose transit.  Sometimes the stuff inside the bus might make a better difference in doing that.  If perse those same LFAs came with Wi-fi, and other attractive amenities (sp?), then that might attract a car driver to choose riding the bus instead of driving.   Also we might hate it, but the tvs that WMATA might want to put on bus and rail, but it could attract people who have that perception of a bus as being a dirty, smoke belching, pee smelling beast.  The fact that the having only a more modern looking bus isn't going to get that person who is thinking about riding transit, if that person sees that route running late all of the time and when they do see it it's packed.  He is not going to get on that thing.  Now if he sees the bus running more often and seeing that he can get a seat and that he can do his work on it, then that will change his opinion on whether to ride it or not.

As more my opinion on whether of the LFA is wasted money or not, I would need info to make that decision.

[RailBus63]

So if you don't like how public transportaion runs then DON'T RIDE IT, otherwise deal with it don't talk if you don't want to do anything about it to change it.

This is nonsense.  People have a right to complain about poor service.  And it's not just one person's opinion - there have been plenty of media reports about how poor Metrobus service is (check out this Washington Post article from 2005).

Are you related to John Catoe or some other WMATA bigwig?  You're awfully sensitive to criticism of the agency.

[Tristan]

Wes: Good point on the aerodynamics.  I thought about that but didn't think it really applied to the low speeds that these buses generally reach.  I would be interested to find out if they do indeed fare better than a standard bus. 

We'd need something like a Ride On Gillig Advantage hybrid to race a DE42LFA and see what happens -- they both use the Allison hybrid package, but it's still apples to oranges...just the closest comparison I could think of.

RailBus63: Thanks for posting that article...I might review it and see how much has changed in the 4 years since it was posted...my sense of it is that, aside from the new buses and the new limited-stop routes, well not much.

[79MetroExtraMD]

Wes: Good point on the aerodynamics.  I thought about that but didn't think it really applied to the low speeds that these buses generally reach.  I would be interested to find out if they do indeed fare better than a standard bus. 

We'd need something like a Ride On Gillig Advantage hybrid to race a DE42LFA and see what happens -- they both use the Allison hybrid package, but it's still apples to oranges...just the closest comparison I could think of.

RailBus63: Thanks for posting that article...I might review it and see how much has changed in the 4 years since it was posted...my sense of it is that, aside from the new buses and the new limited-stop routes, well not much.

I have a better race: MTA's 9000 hybrids vs the DE42LFA.