"The New Metrobus?"

[Antozilla]

I trust you all don't listen to NPR and hear ads for the 'New Metro Bus".  Catoe et al are pushing the new buses and for that ad line to work the buses have to look (not just be) new and those bullet buses whether they be nabis or new flyer do that.  Also note like the Metro Local and Express schemes, LA had these bullet buses.  Anyone notice a coincidence?

[Tristan]

There is some value in sleek style lines, though I think the LFR does that, but AS A DAILY RIDER WHO *DEPENDS* ON METROBUS TO GET ME AROUND, I'd rather wait 15 minutes tops for a Borg-like Skoda ETB in SF than fritter away for an HOUR for a DE42LFA ... As a fare- and tax-paying passenger, I am actually INSULTED that these things are running around on the same tired, inefficient routes, providing the same unreliable service, dunked in glitter and called the "new" Metrobus.  Yes, I know about the Limiteds, but I live in the 'burbs...all we got is REX and that does nothing if you don't live on Richmond Hwy, and they're about to have ANOTHER set of public hearings   unless they already had them (third in four years) about improving service on the 28A/B and still NOTHING has happened. I take a 29N home from work that is regularly 20 minutes late, never on time, sometimes it's an LFA, sometimes it's an Orion V, sometimes a VI, I don't give a damn, I'm tired, it's cold, I just wanna go home, thank god for NextBus when it works. Look here comes an AT8 right on time going the same way and I ride for free! To hell with you New Metrobus, I can't wait to buy a car.

[79MetroExtraMD]

There is some value in sleek style lines, though I think the LFR does that, but AS A DAILY RIDER WHO *DEPENDS* ON METROBUS TO GET ME AROUND, I'd rather wait 15 minutes tops for a Borg-like Skoda ETB in SF than fritter away for an HOUR for a DE42LFA ... As a fare- and tax-paying passenger, I am actually INSULTED that these things are running around on the same tired, inefficient routes, providing the same unreliable service, dunked in glitter and called the "new" Metrobus.  Yes, I know about the Limiteds, but I live in the 'burbs...all we got is REX and that does nothing if you don't live on Richmond Hwy, and they're about to have ANOTHER set of public hearings   unless they already had them (third in four years) about improving service on the 28A/B and still NOTHING has happened. I take a 29N home from work that is regularly 20 minutes late, never on time, sometimes it's an LFA, sometimes it's an Orion V, sometimes a VI, I don't give a damn, I'm tired, it's cold, I just wanna go home, thank god for NextBus when it works. Look here comes an AT8 right on time going the same way and I ride for free! To hell with you New Metrobus, I can't wait to buy a car.

So where's the N   

That's Royal Street for you. As for Nextbus, Orbital sucks anyway because it konks out alot and just plain sucks. Siemens would have been better.

[WayneNYC]

I totally agree with Tristan.  They can push these new "bullet" buses with flashy paint jobs all they want.  Sure, people may look and say that looks nice and/or modern, but trust me.... That will get old very quickly when the bus is not on-time and you just want to get home.  I'm OK with nice-looking buses, but in my opinion... It's good reliable service first.  It's one thing when you're looking at the nice sleek new bus on display somewhere.  It's another when you're trying to get to work, home or whatever.  In the real world on a cold winter morning or a sweltering hot afternoon, most people just care that a bus shows up on-time (and hopefully the heat or A/C is working).  Whether that bus is a fresh new LFA or a 9 year old Orion V is not going to matter much to Joe and Jane Rider.

[mrpete]

All that regular riders really care about are consistent on time reliability (given the vagaries of traffic) and a safe clean vehicle with a courteous operator. Everything else is PR (or BS).

Although some posters have mentioned European styling elements of some buses the reality is that the vast majority of European manufacturers build boring boxes on wheels, most of which resemble each other. Only the UK's Wright (StreetCar/BRT), France's Iris Bus (Civis) and Belgium's VDL (Phileas) buck that trend, none of which have sold in any volume anywhere.

The interiors of Euro buses are rather Spartan, yet efficient for passenger flow with lots of hand holds. Anyone remember WMATA's AM Generals with carpeting??

All of these Design "enhancements" are PR tactics to attract people who otherwise avoid the bus like the plague, as though this superficial eye candy will trick newbies into thinking they're not really riding a bus. But as Tristan  might say, if the service ain't s---t it doesn't matter what you're riding in.

[Tritransit Area]

Youch - I'd love some buses that didn't look just like the old ones.

On that note, the new buses/design/scheme is a start.  I mean, c'mon, when I was riding the NABI 60-BRT on the U8, people turned their heads and looked at the vehicle.  That doesn't happen often - buses are often considered ignorable white noise or worse...  You can upgrade the service all you want with buses that look like they came from the 1980s, but it's hard to get those who generally ignore buses to just take a second glance.

I know in terms of "Big R", when I see pics of the Baby Gs running on former cutaway routes, I've been taking notice.  "Oh!  There's a 53?" etc.  Now that you have their attention, then show them how service has/will improve!  WMATA used to try that with the "brandings".

I would hope that they would continue with the upgrades to the service, but Catoe is trying to undo a lot of damage caused by neglect of the Metrobus system.  There's so much to do, and a good bit has been done already!

Give it time...and yell at your local officials to make sure WMATA has it's funding and is held accountable to provide decent service.  As cool as it is to have all of these different systems out there, it's kind of shameful that they exist and are so well developed now.  WMATA really leaves a lot of holes out there in the DC Area.

[Tritransit Area]

By the way, I'm thoroughly amused by the amount of complaints about "too many New Flyers".  At least you have variety in your Flyers, and at least you have a considerable amount of buses that aren't New Flyers.

Where I hail from, we're looking at replacing the last batch of non-New Flyer 40 foot buses with the current batch of New Flyer [slow]brids.  All of the New Flyers in the fleet, save for the E40LFRs, share the same look.

[Tristan]

There is some value in sleek style lines, though I think the LFR does that, but AS A DAILY RIDER WHO *DEPENDS* ON METROBUS TO GET ME AROUND, I'd rather wait 15 minutes tops for a Borg-like Skoda ETB in SF than fritter away for an HOUR for a DE42LFA ... As a fare- and tax-paying passenger, I am actually INSULTED that these things are running around on the same tired, inefficient routes, providing the same unreliable service, dunked in glitter and called the "new" Metrobus.  Yes, I know about the Limiteds, but I live in the 'burbs...all we got is REX and that does nothing if you don't live on Richmond Hwy, and they're about to have ANOTHER set of public hearings   unless they already had them (third in four years) about improving service on the 28A/B and still NOTHING has happened. I take a 29N home from work that is regularly 20 minutes late, never on time, sometimes it's an LFA, sometimes it's an Orion V, sometimes a VI, I don't give a damn, I'm tired, it's cold, I just wanna go home, thank god for NextBus when it works. Look here comes an AT8 right on time going the same way and I ride for free! To hell with you New Metrobus, I can't wait to buy a car.

So where's the N   

That's Royal Street for you. As for Nextbus, Orbital sucks anyway because it konks out alot and just plain sucks. Siemens would have been better.

Royal doesn't have LFAs or Orion VIs - this is one of the few West Ox runs I speak of.

[Annex4421]

You know it kills me how everybody bad talks WMATA so what? WMATA is a bad T/A because of these "waste of plastics" the LFAs. Gimmie a break I'd rather us have a diverse fleet than looking at the same buses, once again like Ken said 4 wheels and a seat, but wait they're hybrids oh thats right now I see it, most of yall hate hybrids nope WMATA hybrids, If Ride-On gets new buses everybody praises them "OH WOW RIDE-ON HAS NEW BUSES WOOOO" WMATA "Oh I don't think they're good enough they are a waste" Answer this If the LFAs were CNG then I woundn't be saying this and all this "Waste of plastic" crap wouldn't be on here. But don't get me wrong I'm not saying your opinions don't matter I just feel there's alot of jealousy toward WMATA because its one of the best T/A's in the world hands down, and I wonder what the converation will be in 2012 when the new Southeastern opens and if I said "IF" Catoe orders C42LFAs.
I'm down for whatever WMATA gets Butas long as we don't get too many I don't care what WMATA gets because I'm a true WMATA rep I actually appriciate WMATA I feel if and being DASH, Fairfax Connector or whateva jus be glad there is one that has buses that get you from point A to point B I mean its like A good friend told me they're other countries that would kill to be like our T/A so appriciate what you have and if you don't like WMATA don't say anything, Its funny I like everything that DASH has, that Connector has, I ride certain buses all the time and I have never complained about how they look maybe the service half the time but other than that I never complained any T/A in the DMV area.

[WayneNYC]

You know it kills me how everybody bad talks WMATA so what? WMATA is a bad T/A because of these "waste of plastics" the LFAs. Gimmie a break I'd rather us have a diverse fleet than looking at the same buses, once again like Ken said 4 wheels and a seat, but wait they're hybrids oh thats right now I see it, most of yall hate hybrids nope WMATA hybrids, If Ride-On gets new buses everybody praises them "OH WOW RIDE-ON HAS NEW BUSES WOOOO" WMATA "Oh I don't think they're good enough they are a waste" Answer this If the LFAs were CNG then I woundn't be saying this and all this "Waste of plastic" crap wouldn't be on here. But don't get me wrong I'm not saying your opinions don't matter I just feel there's alot of jealousy toward WMATA because its one of the best T/A's in the world hands down, and I wonder what the converation will be in 2012 when the new Southeastern opens and if I said "IF" Catoe orders C42LFAs.
I'm down for whatever WMATA gets Butas long as we don't get too many I don't care what WMATA gets because I'm a true WMATA rep I actually appriciate WMATA I feel if and being DASH, Fairfax Connector or whateva jus be glad there is one that has buses that get you from point A to point B I mean its like A good friend told me they're other countries that would kill to be like our T/A so appriciate what you have and if you don't like WMATA don't say anything, Its funny I like everything that DASH has, that Connector has, I ride certain buses all the time and I have never complained about how they look maybe the service half the time but other than that I never complained any T/A in the DMV area.

OK - I can't speak for anyone else, but I can address your statements on my own behalf.  First:  We're all bus fans, but I think while some us can separate from fan stuff and real world practicality, I'm not sure you're doing the same.  You're statements are that of a bus fan and I have news for you.  We're a very tiny minority amongst the many, many thousands of people using WMATA daily. 

Also, you'd have to look long and hard to find a post in which I put WMATA down.  Sure, I don't always agree with their decisions, but I don't dislike the agency.  I like a diverse fleet too, but I can see where rostering a fleet of number types of buses is not practical.  Example: If you know about the commercial airlines you'll know that Southwest is one (if not the best) of the best run airlines in the country.  A big part of Southwest's success is that their entire fleet is 100% B-737 planes.

I'm not seeing the jealousy part you mention, nor am I seeing the big bru haha about Ride On's new buses.

I'm not trying to insult you, but I honestly don't understand how you've come to these conclusions and I think you've totally missed the point.  One more thing I can tell you is that the powertrain has absolutely nothing to do with my objection to them.  I'm simply against the waste (with no added benefit) that goes into the LFA period.  It doesn't matter if it's CNG, LNG, diesel, hybrid or whatever.

Again - Non-artic buses have 6 wheels.

[Tristan]

I'm just curious where you got this notion that WMATA is one of the best TA's in the world -- have you been outside of America at all?  I've seen muuuuch better.  Are you just getting this from what someone told you?  You're entitled to your opinion, but you can't stuff it down our throats and expect and force us to believe it, especially if you don't have any comparisons to back it up.

And where are you getting this that people don't like hybrids?  We had a practical discussion as to how their advantages fade off at highway speed and suddenly we "hate" them?  I suggest before you post another response to this thread that you go back and read everything very carefully because you're jumping on people for conclusions that you yourself are making out of stuff that wasn't said or didn't happen.

[Annex4421]

Ok I'm not trying to force anybody to believe anything I just feel people complain about buses for dumb reasons. And I read everything I know what I'm saying, I say what others don't and I've done my homework because when the NABI 60 BRT's came out almost everybody was excited to see them and what is it really a remixed LFW jus like the LFA is a remixed LF or LFR and I say what is on my mind and only mines, and what do you mean comparisons I stated it already as for WMATA being one of the best T/A's in the world like you said you've seen better, so being ONE of the best isn't saying you're the better than all. I think you're being a WMATA hater and you rather wait 15 minutes tops for a Borg-like Skoda ETB in SF than fritter away for an HOUR for a DE42LFA and how are you insulted you don't work for WMATA and what you wait for a bus it doesn't show up so now you get mad and hate the bus you're in Virginia and the LFA probably don't run where you're based most of the time, look at PG county where people actually wait and hour for a bus they don't care about how the bus looks all they care about is getting from point A to point B, and so should you I mean ok WMATA gets LFR for example and you think wow this bus looks good but it's performance suck epic blow for you, and ok you think hybrids are pointless on highways I think someone mentioned it but if thats the case I think they wouldn't have been ordered in the 1st place I mean how else do they get here unless I'm wrong and they come by train, I'm not jumping on anybody and what I mentioned earlier is what has been said, maybe I called somebody out and they're in their feelings. I'm not trying to start some beef or anything I'm just one of those people who have different opinions than everybody else and suddenly I'm wrong or I'm not doing something right that makes me laugh I'm done with this discussion.

[aznboy4305]

I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of opinions on this topic.

It is true that agencies should utilize money to its fullest to optimize service levels, but it doesn't mean product branding should be neglected. Having a decent amount of service and having flashy buses do work towards the same goal, but one does not substitute for the other. You have the dependent, or inelastic demographics of riders who will use the bus no matter what kind of vehicle shows up at their stop or how crappy it looks. There's no doubt in my mind they aren't affected at all by some futuristic design, flashy paint job, and blinging rims. But remember, these riders are not going to be around forever, just as with everything else in this society; people come and go. One day or another, every single rider who rides today will no longer be riding in the future, that's why it is a constant responsibility for transit agencies, businesses, restaurants, and so forth to attract new riders and replenish their customer base. Public perception of transit is a major factor in people's decision to choose transit over other modes of transportation. Sure, it may not be an exact science nor is it something that can be measured definitively and proven by statistics, but this is why corportations and businesses spend millions, if not billions of dollars of money just on marketing and advertisement. Before people become regular transit users, chances are; the VERY first perception they get of transit is not what is printed on the timetable, but is the sight and image of the bus itself on the streets. Even when they are attracted enough to pick up a schedule, the very first thing they see on the schedule is a picture of a bus.

Having blinging buses also help break common stereotypes people often have on transit. It may not be as predominate in DC but I see it out here in Lafayette, IN a LOT. A lot of (upper-middle class, mommy and daddy buy me a car) kids come to school here at Purdue with the conditioned mindset of "Oh no! Transit = Black people and crime and whatnot!" However as the kids spend more time here, we do see a trend of increasing ridership, and a LOT of feedback that we receive from our riders are complementing how good our buses look. Those complements only increased exponentially when we added more and more BRT Gilligs and Hybrids to the fleet. As a matter of fact, a lot of people here cannot tell the difference between a diesel BRT and a hybrid BRT. I've seen countless comments complement a random diesel BRT as a "hybrid". But they can tell the difference between a diesel BRT and a regular diesel Advantage.

As far as money goes, I believe branding and modernizing bus styles is a wise investment. I don't know exactly how much more expensive an LFA is over an LFR. But the number for the BRT package has been said to be about $17,000. Thats a bus you're going to be using for 12 years at the very least, that same bus is also going to be one of your tools for attracting choice riders to build your ridership base. That $17,000 investment you make is going to last you 12 years. When people are choosing between a car and a bus, they're going to be deciding between a brand new, state of the art, latest design Honda whatever. And the bus they will see on the streets is whatever the transit agency decided to buy 5, 6, 8, 12 years ago. Transit needs to constantly compete with all the other modes and unfornately for this industry, we are at a disadvantage; we have to think well ahead of our time, 12 or so years in advance. Whereas in the auto industry, they get to change their lineup and design every year.

This doesn't mean I don't believe in adding service though. When you weigh the two, I'm all for improving and updating image, I'm all for adding service. But if it comes down to the option of giving UP service for image, service comes first. But that isn't the case as spending for capital investment versus operational money is like comparing apples and oranges.

In a nutshell, you need to touch base with your existing riders by providing adequate service to retain them. You also need to touch base with potential riders, the ones who will be our ridership base after this current generation is gone. A new lifelong transit rider is born as simply enough as a child going "mommy, look at that shiny, bright, bulletlike bus, can we ride it?!". Perception by your potential riders goes unseen, noticed, does not stand out in cold hard numbers, and it is an inexact science, but I believe it is an essential part of keeping this industry alive.

[Tristan]

Dude that has to be the lonest run-on sentence I have ever tried to read.  If you're trying to make a point (or several), some commas, periods, and returns would go a long way to helping you get it across.  I'm not knocking your grammar to be mean and insulting and I hope it doesn't come off that way, I'm just telling you that it's hard for people to understand you if you post one long unpunctuated blob of text.

I tried to  break it down so I could answer your points, but I wonder if I wasted my time...

[Ok I'm not trying to force anybody to believe anything I just feel people complain about buses for dumb reasons.]

[And I read everything I know what I'm saying, I say what others don't and I've done my homework because when the NABI 60 BRT's came out almost everybody was excited to see them and what is it really a remixed LFW jus like the LFA is a remixed LF or LFR and I say what is on my mind and only mines, ]

>>What I'm saying is that you aren't really paying full attention to what people are saying, or it's not obvious from your responses.  From what you say, it looks like you pick one word out of a sentence and jump on top of it.  There will be examples below.

[and what do you mean comparisons I stated it already as for WMATA being one of the best T/A's in the world like you said you've seen better, so being ONE of the best isn't saying you're the better than all. ]

>> Forgive me - you did say WMATA is *one* of the best TAs in the world.  I still think if you had real criteria and did a concise ranking, WMATA would not be in the top 10 -- there's just a lot better going on out there, you should try to see it at some point.  Ask someone like WMATAGMOAGH who has been all over the world to see other systems.  Admittedly, a lot of their problems stem from the anti-transit mentality in America that Ray spoke of, but some American cities like San Francisco have managed to break through that.

[I think you're being a WMATA hater and you rather wait 15 minutes tops for a Borg-like Skoda ETB in SF than fritter away for an HOUR for a DE42LFA and how are you insulted you don't work for WMATA and what you wait for a bus it doesn't show up so now you get mad and hate the bus you're in Virginia and the LFA probably don't run where you're based most of the time, ]

>>I am a WMATA hater when they feed us all this BS about "the new Metrobus" just because they overspent on vehicles, yet my bus still isn't on time.  I get DE37LFAs on that trip that I spoke of sometimes, other times I get Orion Vs, other times I get Orion VIs -- either way, it's 20 minutes late and the sleek lines of the LFA don't make me any less irritated about it being late.  People are going to see the LFAs and think "wow that looks good" and maybe they'll come ride them, but then when they find out how unreliable or overcrowded the service can be, they'll hop back in their cars.  You want to get personal with it? I think you're a WMATA lover who would stick with them no matter what, even if every route ran every 2 hours and the fare went up to $4 for local service.  I'm half joking though so don't trip.

[look at PG county where people actually wait and hour for a bus they don't care about how the bus looks all they care about is getting from point A to point B, and so should you ]
>>See this is where I say READ CAREFULLY -- because that's EXACTLY what I'm saying.  I don't care WHAT shows up as long as its clean and on time, but headways better than 1 hour would help public perception.  We have some at DASH too and if we had the funding, we'd get rid of them.

I mean ok WMATA gets LFR for example and you think wow this bus looks good but it's performance suck epic blow for you, and ok you think hybrids are pointless on highways I think someone mentioned it but if thats the case I think they wouldn't have been ordered in the 1st place I mean how else do they get here unless I'm wrong and they come by train,
>>Here's another example of you either not paying complete attention or just not thinking.  A heavy duty transit bus is designed to last at least 12 years.  They don't build the bus for the ONE TIME it gets delivered, they build it to survive for TWELVE YEARS in the environment they're supposed to be in.  Similarly, while deadheading is an issue to consider, that generally only takes like one hour out of what could be an 18-hour block of work.  So, the fuel economy of hybrids decreases on highways -- you're jumping on that as if we're saying hybrids suck.  I for one have a very high opinion of them and hope more agencies will purchase them, and I've never said anything to the contrary -- all I'm saying is that if you are a starter and you have one route that spends most of its time at highway speeds like the B30 and another route that works in stop-and-go traffic, and you have one diesel and one hybrid, you put the hybrid on the stop-and-go route and the diesel on the highway route.

This whole conversation about hybrids started when someone said "yay hybrids for the B30" and one person said that a hybrid is just not a good bus to put on the B30 -- another example of you not reading carefully, because again, no one said hybrids suck in general, all of us who responded are just trying to say that a hybrid bus's advantage is in stop-and-go traffic.

[I'm not jumping on anybody and what I mentioned earlier is what has been said, maybe I called somebody out and they're in their feelings. I'm not trying to start some beef or anything I'm just one of those people who have different opinions than everybody else and suddenly I'm wrong or I'm not doing something right that makes me laugh I'm done with this discussion.]

I don't think anyone here takes too much of this stuff personally, at least I hope they don't...so you shouldn't either.  All I'm saying is that your responses have been to things people weren't really trying to say, as I've pointed out here.

[WayneNYC]

I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of opinions on this topic.
...

quote author=aznboy4305 link=topic=1127.msg11387#msg11387 date=1257952902]
I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of opinions on this topic.
....


I understand your points, but overall we're in disagreement.  I can understanding trying to make transit an "attractive" option.  So they'll do their marketing to make the public aware of the service they offer and so on.  However, I'm certain that to Jane/Joe Rider, the flashy paint schemes and modern styling goes out the window pretty quickly.  That said, they will notice bold paint schemes and modern styling in a positive way.  However, I seriously doubt that a good-looking bus is enough to persuade someone to use a particular transit system. 

I remember in my teen days of the early 1980s when Advanced Design Buses (ADB) were coming along.  Everyone noticed them because of their sleek new design and the electronic destination sign with P/R messages and so on.  People actually talked about the "new buses" for a bit, but the novelty of these new advance designs faded rather quickly.  Fast forward some years: My regular barber shop is on 4th St, NW near to Blair Road.  So the 50s and 60s to/from Takoma Station pass by.  I was in the shop one day when a DE42LFA passed by and it caught the attention of a guy in the shop.  He said something like... Yo, check out that Metrobus.  One of the others guys answered yes, as he had seen a couple of them already.  I'm sure that died down real quick as they probably have little or no interest in buses.   

Also, back when WMATA first started operating the Orion II, one of my co-workers who know's I have an interest in transit ask me about a "retarted-looking noisy Metrobus" she started seeing in Georgetown.  I say this all to say that I believe the average Joe will notice a "different" transit vehicle.  However, even if they like the way it looks, I seriously doubt it would sway many toward using the service.

Some other examples I know of involves NYCTA, MTAB and one of the former PBLs - NYBS.  When NYCTA started getting the MCI for express service, some people would pass up a transit Orion V or RTS with suburban seating in hopes of getting a MCI.  I can understand this at MTAB since they still have the occasional local bus show up on express runs.

Also at NYBS some years ago, they got that small group of Orion V suburbans.  The NYBS regualrs immediately didn't like these buses as they "seemed too much like a local bus".  This is probably because they didn't have dark-tinted windows.  Anyways those buses didn't last long at NYBS before they were shipped out. 

I just asked one of my co-workers about this sort of thing while consciously trying not to lead her.  Her response is exactly what I expected and what I believe the mindset is of the average person in regards to mass transit.  She said "They new buses look nice, but as long as it's relatively clean (inside) and it arriving on schedule are the only important factors" to her.

To summarize... I think the average person will notice new colors and designs, and may like it. However, I doubt that's enough to get or keep them on-board.  Also, I'm certain that if the service is unreliable, they're not going to care at all about the new designs and colors.