Let's increase some more station names!

[Scrabbleship]

Has SEPTA ever refurbished the BSS cars? I know they are reaching almost 30 years and could due for a good facelift.

They replaced the door chimes with that "doors closing" announcement and at least one car (666 I think) had its orange panels removed exposing the stainless steal underneath. Given that SEPTA usually drags their heels in retiring anything until they absolutely must, it might be a good time for a facelift since those cars could see 50 years easily.

It's funny to see the contrast between "retire the Rohr's yesterday!!" in DC vs. Philly having tolerated the following since SEPTA came into being.

   
• The original early 1930's vintage Norristown Brill cars lasting until the early 90's.
• The original BSS cars from the mid 1920's (and the mid 1930's followup) being run until the early 80's, falling apart so much in their last years that the BSS could barely operate.
• The old 30's vintage Reading Bluebirds on Regional Rail also made it into the early 90's too, this before the Silverliners got their very long lives that last to today.
• Tolerating the non-AC'd, sealed window MFL Almond Joy's until the turn of the century, long after similar non-AC'd cars elsewhere were retired.
• The old surface line PCC fleet being quite decrepit for many years leading to their demise to the point of being unsafe.
• SEPTA's love of wanting to buy secondhand cars to replace the above before buying new. Remember the CTA 6000's on Route 100, or how the MBTA 01100's nearly went onto the BSS?
• Not SEPTA, but PATCO's want to rebuild rather than buy new. Budd cars were well built, but in 20 years will people want to ride a 60-year old PATCO car even refurbished?

Has any other agency been that hard to part with anything before? Reading about the BSS decline 30 years ago made the Rohrs seem a lot more quaint.

[SchuminWeb]

I think the big difference here is that the NTSB has pretty much called the Rohr cars rolling coffins after a few collisions where the Rohrs failed catastrophically.  One car way up in the air telescoped over another is pretty much the signature of WMATA collisions.

[Scrabbleship]

I think the big difference here is that the NTSB has pretty much called the Rohr cars rolling coffins after a few collisions where the Rohrs failed catastrophically.  One car way up in the air telescoped over another is pretty much the signature of WMATA collisions.

Which is what WMATA got for going for a company that was a rail fly-by-night rather than giving their business to prop up a dying Pullman-Standard or a then-somewhat-healthy Budd. Heck, if the "Nam-is-ending-lets-keep-contractors-busy" factor was at play, Boeing'd have been a better move (judged off of the CTA 2400's, not the LRV's).

And I wonder how BART has been immune from any problems with their Rohrs...

[Tritransit Area]

How are they changing the signs when the signs themselves use near-obsolete technology. I love the quirky old-school signs on the BSS cars, but I wonder why SEPTA didn't change them to LED's or even LCD's when they had their midlife rehab?

If it was "Pattison/AT&T", it'd be a much bigger compromise and it'd be easier to fix if the deal ever goes south.

Isn't it just simply a couple of lamps behind a silkscreened piece of glass?

I've never been any big fan of expensive electronic signs for rolling stock that only visits literally a handful of destinations, but...

given SEPTA's retrofits of Norristown and Girard cars, I wouldn't be shocked to see them actually waste the money for LEDs.

The Norristown HSL cars kind of needed them as the "new" roll signs were fading (melting?) VERY badly...you could barely read them.  Plus, the whole burned out motor fiasco was interesting.  Plus, now you can do P/R messages like "Go Phillies!"  Anyway, with the different types of expresses (Hughes Park and Norristown ), the Norristown Limited, the local short turns, random potential short turns (Wynnewood Road, Radnor), and the potential (dream?) of service to Valley Forge/King of Prussia, it isn't too crazy.

So far, only one PCC II has an LED sign...those are really supposed to be for the (city) Kawasakis, so I dunno how or why a PCC II ended up with one.

It would be nice for the BSL cars to have LED signs, though.  It would be nice to be able to read the actual destination of the train easily.  I guess it's not urgent since most people just look at the lights anyway for "line" information.  If anything, I would have liked to see LED signs for those cars just for the ease in being able to read the signs and so that both endpoints of the train aren't illuminated at the same time.

Of course, the cars are 28 years old now.  I'd say they are a bit old for new signs, but the K-cars are getting them...

[Tritransit Area]

I think the big difference here is that the NTSB has pretty much called the Rohr cars rolling coffins after a few collisions where the Rohrs failed catastrophically.  One car way up in the air telescoped over another is pretty much the signature of WMATA collisions.

Which is what WMATA got for going for a company that was a rail fly-by-night rather than giving their business to prop up a dying Pullman-Standard or a then-somewhat-healthy Budd. Heck, if the "Nam-is-ending-lets-keep-contractors-busy" factor was at play, Boeing'd have been a better move (judged off of the CTA 2400's, not the LRV's).

And I wonder how BART has been immune from any problems with their Rohrs...

Outside of their durability issues in accidents, have there been many issues with the Rohrs?

[Tritransit Area]

Has SEPTA ever refurbished the BSS cars? I know they are reaching almost 30 years and could due for a good facelift.

They replaced the door chimes with that "doors closing" announcement and at least one car (666 I think) had its orange panels removed exposing the stainless steal underneath. Given that SEPTA usually drags their heels in retiring anything until they absolutely must, it might be a good time for a facelift since those cars could see 50 years easily.

It's funny to see the contrast between "retire the Rohr's yesterday!!" in DC vs. Philly having tolerated the following since SEPTA came into being.

   
• The original early 1930's vintage Norristown Brill cars lasting until the early 90's.
• The original BSS cars from the mid 1920's (and the mid 1930's followup) being run until the early 80's, falling apart so much in their last years that the BSS could barely operate.
• The old 30's vintage Reading Bluebirds on Regional Rail also made it into the early 90's too, this before the Silverliners got their very long lives that last to today.
• Tolerating the non-AC'd, sealed window MFL Almond Joy's until the turn of the century, long after similar non-AC'd cars elsewhere were retired.
• The old surface line PCC fleet being quite decrepit for many years leading to their demise to the point of being unsafe.
• SEPTA's love of wanting to buy secondhand cars to replace the above before buying new. Remember the CTA 6000's on Route 100, or how the MBTA 01100's nearly went onto the BSS?
• Not SEPTA, but PATCO's want to rebuild rather than buy new. Budd cars were well built, but in 20 years will people want to ride a 60-year old PATCO car even refurbished?

Has any other agency been that hard to part with anything before? Reading about the BSS decline 30 years ago made the Rohrs seem a lot more quaint.

This is what happens when you have a state that hates its major cities and their transit systems, with people in the rural areas more than happy to starve the agencies and "not cater to the big cities" as things like public transit don't apply to their lifestyles...yet.  SEPTA had a lot of things they inherited that had to be replaced back then and had severe budgetary issues...

The railroads, Philadelphia Transit Company, the Red Arrow, and Schuylkill Valley Lines ran very old equipment and deferred maintenance quite a bit as well.

Thankfully, they managed to pull through.  Re: the second hand cars, though...I know the CTA cars were obtained because the Bullets and Strafford Cars could literally run no more.  They, along with the transfered M3s, helped to keep the line from being bussed.  This was due to the fact that the N5s were severely delayed.

Besides, with the huge problems they constantly have buying new railcars, can you blame them for not wanting to deal with the headaches?

Never heard about the potential for "MBTA cars" to run in the BSS,  but it probably was for a similar reason...an emergency band-aid until something new was obtained.  Also, the M3s had openable windows and fans that were "innovative" at the time they were built.  Too bad the majority of them weren't retrofitted with a/c (one car was, but it was unreliable).

[Tritransit Area]

Has SEPTA ever refurbished the BSS cars? I know they are reaching almost 30 years and could due for a good facelift.

I don't think they ever refurbished the BSS cars (that's not to say they were never overhauled, though).  However, outside of some upgraded signage and maybe a very good deep cleaning, I don't think it's really that necessary.   The cars are in GREAT shape for their age.

I think the only cars SEPTA ever fully refurbished are the Silverliner IVs.

[Tritransit Area]

What is the point of the extra long station names, anyway?  Is it more like something that just looks good on paper since most people will end up short-handing the names anyway?

[Scrabbleship]

Never heard about the potential for "MBTA cars" to run in the BSS,  but it probably was for a similar reason...an emergency band-aid until something new was obtained.  Also, the M3s had openable windows and fans that were "innovative" at the time they were built.  Too bad the majority of them weren't retrofitted with a/c (one car was, but it was unreliable).

This would be right. The BSS by that point (around 30 years ago) had cut train frequency/lengths to the bone as the original cars were dying for good left and right and David Gunn had an agreement in principle to get the 01100's to Philly as a bandaid. Only problem is that Hawker-Siddley went on strike for a year and SEPTA was able to strike a fast deal with a then-new-to-the-US Kawasaki to get the current cars in during the interim.

For cars without AC made after AC became feasible, the M3's actually had decent lives. The aforementioned 01100's barely made 25, their sister 01400's barely made 30, same for the R27/R30's in NYC. Even some of the earliest AC'd cars got retired soon, the PATH K-car series and CTA 2000's barely made 30, the Airporters in Cleveland didn't even make 20!

[WMATAGMOAGH]

What is the point of the extra long station names, anyway?  Is it more like something that just looks good on paper since most people will end up short-handing the names anyway?

Think of it this way.  Even if something like "AU" or "Adams Morgan" is far away from the station, at least it seems like you can take the Metro there, even if a long walk or shuttle bus ride is involved in actually reaching your destination. 

[WayneNYC]

For cars without AC made after AC became feasible, the M3's actually had decent lives. The aforementioned 01100's barely made 25, their sister 01400's barely made 30, same for the R27/R30's in NYC. Even some of the earliest AC'd cars got retired soon, the PATH K-car series and CTA 2000's barely made 30, the Airporters in Cleveland didn't even make 20!

NYCTA's R27, R30/30A didn't get retrofitted with A/C because the added weight, and these cars were already very heavy.  This pretty much put them on the road to an "early" retirement.  All other NYCTA car classes with A/C (both factory and retrofits) has given 40 years of service.   The R44 may be the exception to fall just short of 40, but those cars have been trouble-plagued from day one.

[Scrabbleship]

Heading back on topic, the madness continues. This from "DG_rad" on Twitter:

This just in: ANC 6D will hear a request to add "Banneker Memorial" to the L'Enfant Plaza metro station name. Ok WMATA time for a new policy

I know that getting any name cap policies will probably be impossible with Name Inflation Bow-Tie on the board, but there needs to be a stop to the madness. Notice how stations outside the District never succumb to the madness? All this while another station needs a name change as it has a defunct institution attached to it.

I think it might be time to go MBTA style and go with one name with pushing anything else if it isn't an acronym to a line below. This is what happens when you allow elected officials on the board.

[WayneNYC]

I do think it's important for WMATA, or any transit agency to keep station names as simple as possible while also being  descriptive of nearby points of interests.  The problem is where do they draw the line?  I like names like Van Ness-UDC, Franconia-Springfield, Tenleytown-AU etc.  Names I think are too long are those like Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport, New York Ave-Florida Ave Gallaudet U and of course U Street/African-Amer Civil War Memorial-Cardozo.  Sure it's important to point out these points of interest at various stations, but for the sake of simplicity, I'm not sure they should always be part of the station name.  Of course I do think it's important for stations with nearby points of interest to have such signage in the stations and on maps.  On the other hand I do see where it's a bit difficult to shorten names in many WMATA stations. 

Maybe a New York-type approach would work.  The one thing I've never heard complaints about is NYCTA's subway station names.  Even those with nearby points of interests tend to be not very long:  Examples: Eastern Parkway-Brooklyn Museum, Mets-Willets Point, 116th Street-Columbia University, 66th Street-Lincoln Center.  Then we have a bunch that include the neighborhood like: Flushing-Main Street, Coney Island-Stillwell Ave, 179th Street Jamaica, 177th Street-Parkchester etc.     

[Scrabbleship]

I think the big problem on the DC side is that everything is political and ANC members have a disproportionate amount of influence to WMATA in contrast to local legislators in Virginia and Maryland. The root of a lot of this seem to be in areas that are "bouncing back" which want as much exposure as possible hence why most of the Green Line from the District Line to the Anacostia is bloated.

The mentality of "if we put a place in a name, it'll be closer than it really is" that Metro operates under is one that should end and I think there should be a distance cap in what can be mentioned. A cap alone would get rid of most colleges in names, many of which (American, George Mason, Gallaudet) lobbied to bloat the name. There also should be less redundancy, I'm looking at the "7th St" in Mount Vernon Square.

Some names just need to be fixed. New York Avenue's a bit of a joke since the actual road is a bit from the station, Adams Morgan is as close to Columbia Heights than Woodley Park, Georgia Avenue-Petworth is barely in Petworth, etc.

[WMATAGMOAGH]

If anything, I think the desire for neighborhoods and organizations to be connected to Metrorail says something about how important Metrorail and the transportation system in general are to Washington as a city.  That said, simple names are better, and Jackson Graham had letter limits for station length. 

The original name for GA Ave was just Petworth, they added in Georgia Avenue when the route got changed.

Adams-Morgan wants to be "close" to the Metro, and especially in light of whose ward that is, I don't see that one going away, even if it is a bit of a stretch to say the station is there.  I think Woodley Park is best suited for the Adams Morgan suffix since it has the flattest walking route and also the Circulator (and before that, the 98).  At least the station never opened with its original name, Zoological Park.

If AU, GMU, or some other university wants to pay to have its name plastered on a sign, I don't really have an issue with that.  I don't think Metro should be forced to make such changes at its own expense, as was the case with National Airport.  I do think these organizations and politicians need to consider the distance of the suffixes from the actual station, but to be fair, most of these places are either close by to stations or connected by regular shuttle service.  I never knew we had an African American Civil War Memorial in DC until it wound up in the station name, that one can go.  But I have no problem with most of the new names.

I think the suburban stations are less likely to get suffixes because out there, there are fewer close in locations that can be reasonably added to a station name.