Light Rail Preferred for Purple Line

[Perry]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/07/AR2009010703691.html?hpid=artslot

Personally, I would take BRT over light rail because you can put together an extensive network of bus routes with complementing feeder routes for far cheaper than a rail line.  Light rail is not always the answer.  Just ride it in San Diego and see how slow that thing is. It's just because it's perceived as better looking than a bus and offers that sense of it being the end all, be all.  I also like how the PG Officials said their existing bus system is inadequate. Hello?  That was their own doing.  Don't kick it aside thinking the Purple Line is the answer.

We're looking forward to our newest BRT line to start at the end of this year.  People were wanting rail, but rail down the middle of the Strip just wasn't going to happen. We couldn't even get a dedicated bus lane, but it will be by default since nobody will want to sit behind the bus.

[Tritransit Area]

Why is LRT so slow these days...you'd think that with LRT, it would be built to faster standards than a simple busway.

The only thing with having it become BRT is that you can't really have buses longer than 60 feet, and you can easily be overwhelmed with buses - we'd be back to square one.  In this case, I'd think LRT would be great, because that corridor is developing quite a bit (look at Silver Sprung) and LRT can only help.

I'm curious to know if the Busways in Pittsburgh spurred much if any development in the areas they serve.  The EBA essentially runs like a lightrail line.

I also think the Purple Line (as a rail line) could be a great catylist for Public Private Partnerships.  The only problem with getting federal funding for such a line is that it seems that the FTA is not to willing to give money to existing rail systems, particularly expansions.  That's what's going on with SEPTA anyway...it seems to be different with WMATA's very expensive Metrorail system...

[WMAveteran]

Yes, I read THE WASHINGTON POST article and it was interesting to note that many of the people who opposed the BRT thought it would be "perceived" as a second class system although the BRT trip time was estimated to be only about 5 minutes longer than LRT.  For that 5 minute difference the LRT is estimated to cost 3 times as much as a BRT to build and almost twice as much to maintain.  That's a lot of money to spend on a "perception."  I think we should spend some of the planning money and take the planners and politicians to Pittsburgh to ride the busways and to Los Angeles to ride the Orange Line and then see how many "perceptions" change.  Most of the right-of-way for the Purple Line is already developed so I don't know why the politicians and planners are worried about commercial development and no one wants development along the Crescent Trail anyway.

[WES]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/07/AR2009010703691.html?hpid=artslot

Personally, I would take BRT over light rail because you can put together an extensive network of bus routes with complementing feeder routes for far cheaper than a rail line.  Light rail is not always the answer.  Just ride it in San Diego and see how slow that thing is. It's just because it's perceived as better looking than a bus and offers that sense of it being the end all, be all.  I also like how the PG Officials said their existing bus system is inadequate. Hello?  That was their own doing.  Don't kick it aside thinking the Purple Line is the answer.

We're looking forward to our newest BRT line to start at the end of this year.  People were wanting rail, but rail down the middle of the Strip just wasn't going to happen. We couldn't even get a dedicated bus lane, but it will be by default since nobody will want to sit behind the bus.

PG's bus service inadequate, NA DAWG, we in PG love going into our homes before 8pm and NEVER going anywhere on the weekends.  That is how much we in PG love our homes.  While all of the around counties party it up, get drunk and loose sleep because they are not going home, we in PG with going to bed an hour after we get home at 8pm gets-a-plenty, no need for the gubment to provide more bus service we love it the way we have it.

Let's just say, Tristan sees more bus service outside where he works, in an hour, than PG sees in a day.

PG has screwed up royaly in so many areas, it's not funny, from lack of transit service to having the wrong type of development around the Orange line stations. 

It's like the whole area is Japan, America, Germany, Great Britain, South Korea, while PG is Bangledesh (no offense to those who hail from Bangledesh).

[Tritransit Area]

many of the people who opposed the BRT thought it would be "perceived" as a second class system

To be honest, for the DC area, the LRT seems like a 2nd class system.  Yes, it's a huge upgrade to transfering from bus to bus to bus, but having all of this street running and such, in the shadows of a "highly acclaimed" state of the art metro system, does seem a little 2nd class.  Especially if it's only 5 minutes faster than BRT (whatever happened to high speed interurbans?).

Plus, the NIMBYs are out in force.  Just ride the 15, and you'll see all of those "No Train on Wayne" signs on fron lawns.

As planned (with one line following one route) it's best as LRT, for the sake of easily being able to expand capacity with longer trains, w/o having to get more operators as you would with 60 foot buses.  Los Angeles found this out the hard way with the Orange Line.   

Remember, Pittsburgh's success doesn't lie in the fact that they have busways and a bus line the runs along the ROW, but in the fact that many commuter buses from the suburbs/exurbs use those busways as well to access Pittsburgh's city core.

[rideonrulez]

Well I'm a LRT proponent. I think LRT is a MUCH more attractive alternative then a "BRT" and as stated in the article, more permanence. I don't see people getting out of there cars to ride a modern looking bus, but I do see them getting out to ride light rail. Look at ALL of the successful Light Rail systems in this country (this doesn't count Baltimore MTA) Salt Lake City, Denver, Dallas etc etc etc.....

[Perry]

The permenanece factor is a good and a bad thing.  If an area all of a sudden dies off, you still have those tracks running through an area with no demand.  Meanwhile, a bus could easily be rerouted to better serve the area.

I used to really like Light Rail and in some cities, such as Portland and Denver, it is a good thing to have.  But after seeing the benefits of BRT and what you can do with it, i.e. express BRT, then it's a great low cost alternative. If the bus can be just as quick, have the same type of amenities and still deliver what it's supposed to, people will realize it's a good alternative.

It's just like all of those people along I-95 in VA to park their cars at park and ride lots and ride the express buses into DC.  It's all a matter of marketing and efficient routing.  Perhaps rail for for part of it, but I don't know if it's good for the entire system.

[Sand Box John]

Perry
It's just like all of those people along I-95 in VA to park their cars at park and ride lots and ride the express buses into DC.  It's all a matter of marketing and efficient routing.  Perhaps rail for for part of it, but I don't know if it's good for the entire system.

There's one problem with this line of thinking. Not all of those folks are heading to destinations in DC. There heading to Alexandria, there heading to heading to Andrews Air Force Base, there heading to Suitland, there heading to New Carrollton, there heading to Fair Oaks, there heading to Fair Lakes, there heading to Bolling, there heading to Merrifield, there heading to Tysons, there heading to Reston, there heading to Bethesda, there heading to Rockledge, there heading to . . .

[WMAveteran]

In the end, as usual, it will all come down to two factors: politics and money.  Neither of these factors enjoy good reputations for providing for the common good.  At this time the county councils of Montgomery and Prince George's counties are bound and determined to support LRT in order to present a united front to the feds when they go begging for money to construct the system. 

The feds, on the other hand, at least in the present administration, are notoriously frugal as demonstrated in the METRO Tysons Corner extension being approved for above ground rather than underground construction.  If the feds in the Obama administration (who have a lot of financial pressures) look at the cost/benefit analysis for the Purple Line and note that the LRT costs 3 times as much to construct and almost twice as much to maintain as the BRT for five minutes difference in travel time I am not so sure they will fund the LRT. 

[Perry]

The bulk of those that park at the park and ride lots in PW County are destined to the State Dept. area, Bolling AFB, Pentagon, Crystal City, Alexandria, various parts of DC and L'Enfant Plaza.  Almost all of them were served by PRTC.  Those that went to Alexandria took the bus to F/S Metro and went a couple of stops to King Street.  We had tons of requests for direct bus service to there and Shirlington, but it was impossible to do so.  Surveys showed that only a minority of those riders went to any of those other locations, otherwise they drove.  If the bus went there, they would.  Once the H/OT lanes are constructed look for direct service to Reston, Fair Oaks, Merrifield, Bethesda, Tyson's Corner. 

If all of a sudden employment patterns shift, rail would be hard pressed to be able to keep up with it.  As I said, a rail component would be fine for some things, but an extensive BRT/BRT Express system would be the more flexible way to go.  The buses wouldn't look like the regular stuff out there, they could look into other equipment such as the Wright StreetCar or other types that are basically trains with rubber tires. 

It's an interesting debate, we're facing that in Las Vegas.  Some want LR, some don't.  It's a rubber tired mentality and I certainly don't want to see taxpayers dollars get wasted on a billion dollar rail project when we can put together a functional bus system for far cheaper and have the same if not better results.

[rideonrulez]

If all of a sudden employment patterns shift, rail would be hard pressed to be able to keep up with it.  As I said, a rail component would be fine for some things, but an extensive BRT/BRT Express system would be the more flexible way to go.   

But here in the DC area there has'nt been much pattern shifts because it is a little more settled here as it is an older city then say Las Vegas which is still considered a "new" city.

It's a rubber tired mentality and I certainly don't want to see taxpayers dollars get wasted on a billion dollar rail project when we can put together a functional bus system for far cheaper and have the same if not better results.

But the problem is that Americans are hard headed and are in love with automobiles. They seem to think anybody that rides a bus is poor/ghetto/psycho etc etc... Hell  I have a few friends that have the attitude of "I would never take a bus" but will say they will take the Metro into DC anyday. So how do you think a BRT will sell to these people? It won't!!

[79MetroExtraMD]

But the problem is that Americans are hard headed and are in love with automobiles. They seem to think anybody that rides a bus is poor/ghetto/psycho etc etc... Hell  I have a few friends that have the attitude of "I would never take a bus" but will say they will take the Metro into DC anyday. So how do you think a BRT will sell to these people? It won't!!

I was always told to never say never. If last summer wasn't sign of the times, where gas prices were high enough and saw even more people riding the bus and rail as opposed to other times, then people are still naive. They'd rather battle rush hour traffic on 95 295 395 and the Beltway than to take a bus or train into town. Attractiveness is one issue. There is that mentality that a bus is slow, and the whole demographics thing, but there are those people who want an alternative into getting to work. Many of the VA routes and commuter buses are packed with government workers going either into downtown DC or to the Pentagon/Crystal City area.

BRT would be useful in two modes: helper service and feeder service. Alot of corridors do need helper service on lines with heavy ridership and then there are places that need additional feeder service to rail. Then again, there is the attractiveness issue. People would much more prefer steel wheels to rubber.

[Perry]

The sad thing is there is no way to to build the rail lin in such a way that drops people off right where they're going, there will still need to be some sort of rubber tired connection to get to the final place.  I just hope it doesn't keep creating mini downtowns everywhere.  The Rosslyn-Ballston corridor, Silver Spring, Bethesda, they're natural downtowns that benefitted from Metro.  However, College Park, New Carrollton, Laurel, those would be hard-pressed to become so urban. 

I hope they're right by this.  Of course, this will take 30 years to be built so who knows what the landscape may be!!

The whole bus attitude is why you, me Adam and a few others on here work so darn hard to change that image and provide quality, reliable transportation!! :-)

[79MetroExtraMD]

The sad thing is there is no way to to build the rail lin in such a way that drops people off right where they're going, there will still need to be some sort of rubber tired connection to get to the final place.  I just hope it doesn't keep creating mini downtowns everywhere.  The Rosslyn-Ballston corridor, Silver Spring, Bethesda, they're natural downtowns that benefitted from Metro.  However, College Park, New Carrollton, Laurel, those would be hard-pressed to become so urban. 

I hope they're right by this.  Of course, this will take 30 years to be built so who knows what the landscape may be!!

The whole bus attitude is why you, me Adam and a few others on here work so darn hard to change that image and provide quality, reliable transportation!! :-)

It's like a tail of two worlds (well four in this case). If it wasn't for Metro, I don't think Arlington would be as developed as it is today. An urban county of sorts. Fairfax County is starting to take on that new urbanism approach in fast pace. Reston Town Center for example. Even though its a 20 minute ride out from Metro, that whole area is becoming a small town. Clarksburg in a few years might resemble something of a small town and if the CCT line gets built, it could provide reliable transportation from upcounty to Metro. I know we all have utopian views where people consider taking mass transit at least once in their lives and try to cut down on driving. But as I said, people are naive. Give a man a fish, teach a man to fish.

[LandoverDivision]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/07/AR2009010703691.html?hpid=artslot

Personally, I would take BRT over light rail because you can put together an extensive network of bus routes with complementing feeder routes for far cheaper than a rail line.  Light rail is not always the answer.  Just ride it in San Diego and see how slow that thing is. It's just because it's perceived as better looking than a bus and offers that sense of it being the end all, be all.  I also like how the PG Officials said their existing bus system is inadequate. Hello?  That was their own doing.  Don't kick it aside thinking the Purple Line is the answer.

We're looking forward to our newest BRT line to start at the end of this year.  People were wanting rail, but rail down the middle of the Strip just wasn't going to happen. We couldn't even get a dedicated bus lane, but it will be by default since nobody will want to sit behind the bus.

PG's bus service inadequate, NA DAWG, we in PG love going into our homes before 8pm and NEVER going anywhere on the weekends.  That is how much we in PG love our homes.  While all of the around counties party it up, get drunk and loose sleep because they are not going home, we in PG with going to bed an hour after we get home at 8pm gets-a-plenty, no need for the gubment to provide more bus service we love it the way we have it.

Let's just say, Tristan sees more bus service outside where he works, in an hour, than PG sees in a day.

PG has screwed up royaly in so many areas, it's not funny, from lack of transit service to having the wrong type of development around the Orange line stations. 

It's like the whole area is Japan, America, Germany, Great Britain, South Korea, while PG is Bangledesh (no offense to those who hail from Bangledesh).

As a resident in PG, I completly agree. Unless you're at Addison Road or PG Plaza Station where service is ok. It was better when I lived in N.E and S.E D.C. My hometown division was always Bladensburg.