Raise the (Interjurisdictional) Dead!

[Scrabbleship]

Having spent a good part of the weekend in Tysons (for reasons I may not be at liberty to mention ) got me thinking about how as much as the SmartMover routes were as flawed as they were, they'd be a success if it was reactivated especially once the HOT lanes are done and the Silver Line comes in. It also has me wondering about other lost service that crossed inter-jurisdictional lines, often on the unfair end of budget cuts.

I could think of four routes that once existed (and a 5th that once left its friendly confines of territory) that should get a second chance. Which why there's a poll to this. Vote away!

[WayneNYC]

I like the C18, N11/13 and SmartMover (hopefully they'd get used).  However, they'd need to do more to let these buses bypass the heavy traffic.  Also, I wonder if DC area folks would ride express buses if they had dedicated lanes on main streets to/from downtown. 

[79MetroExtraMD]

I like the C18, N11/13 and SmartMover (hopefully they'd get used).  However, they'd need to do more to let these buses bypass the heavy traffic.  Also, I wonder if DC area folks would ride express buses if they had dedicated lanes on main streets to/from downtown. 

Dedicated lanes on main streets could work if traffic wasn't so terrible (i.e 16th street, Wisconsin, Connecticut, etc). I think the problem lies in signal syncronization and preemption. Having to stop and go at every single light slow does the line. IIRC, Georgia Avenue was supposed to have signal priority systems installed for the 79 (I have no idea if this is still going on or on the backburner). Also, some of the main streets in DC carrying traffic to/from Downtown have a limited number of lanes (plus parking).

The interjurisdictional routes should come back (given budgeting of course). Since Tysons is slated to become a mixed zoned area as well as a big employment spot, the 14 line could make a come back. As for the N11/13, I wonder how many people do travel from PG county toward the Pentagon, but I do support having a line going across the Wilson Bridge from MD to VA.

[79MetroExtraMD]

A couple of points:
1. The old 921 route was taken over by Dillions. They still run that route.
2. The C18 wouldn't be wise to come back since Maryland operates that service on a couple of Commuter Bus lines (for a cheaper cost of course).
3. RO75 to Urbana wouldn't come back since the 991 serves Urbana P&R and is easily accessible from Shady Grove for those commuters (albeit the stop needs to be put closer toward the station).

[Scrabbleship]

A couple of points:
1. The old 921 route was taken over by Dillions. They still run that route.
2. The C18 wouldn't be wise to come back since Maryland operates that service on a couple of Commuter Bus lines (for a cheaper cost of course).
3. RO75 to Urbana wouldn't come back since the 991 serves Urbana P&R and is easily accessible from Shady Grove for those commuters (albeit the stop needs to be put closer toward the station).

The 921 still runs? This is the first I've heard of it. Bravo to them though I still think that if there was a midday/weekend (or even Saturday) connection to Annapolis from the DC area that it'd get decent ridership.

C18: I've tried to cobble together a timeline for the service and I'm wondering if MTA was doing the 901 before/during that period. From all I read, it was a well patronized service and I think Waldorf deserves a midday/Saturday connection once again.

75 to Urbana: I've always thought that someone (Ride On, TransIT, whomever) should consider doing some sort of Frederick to Shady Grove route, even if it were just middays/Saturdays. I think there's enough demand from Frederick into DC and even vice versa to allow for such a route.

[WayneNYC]

I'm not at all an expert on this, but yes, I think dedicated lanes on streets like Georgia Ave could work.  My thought is the two right lanes in the peak direction could be bus only lanes.  I say two lanes as it permits express buses to easily pass local buses.  This would mean no parking on Georgia Ave during rush hours, but in addition to the bus lanes they could also reverse the left lane of the non-peak direction to peak direction traffic.  Then you'd have two dedicated peak direction bus lanes, two peak direction traffic lanes and two lanes for non-peak flow traffic.  It could let buses make it to/from downtown quickly and ease crowding on Metrorail. 

IMO, mass transit in the DC area is such that, in a lot of cases there's more of an incentive for motorists to stay in their cars.  If the buses are given a clear advantage where they don't have to compete with the other traffic, then it becomes an attractive option.  Perhaps something like this could be done on other main streets like Central Ave/E Capitol, Pennsylvania Ave, Branch Ave, Landover Rd, Kenilworth Ave, etc.

Just my two cents.

[Scrabbleship]

I like the C18, N11/13 and SmartMover (hopefully they'd get used).  However, they'd need to do more to let these buses bypass the heavy traffic.  Also, I wonder if DC area folks would ride express buses if they had dedicated lanes on main streets to/from downtown. 

Dedicated lanes on main streets could work if traffic wasn't so terrible (i.e 16th street, Wisconsin, Connecticut, etc). I think the problem lies in signal syncronization and preemption. Having to stop and go at every single light slow does the line. IIRC, Georgia Avenue was supposed to have signal priority systems installed for the 79 (I have no idea if this is still going on or on the backburner). Also, some of the main streets in DC carrying traffic to/from Downtown have a limited number of lanes (plus parking).

The interjurisdictional routes should come back (given budgeting of course). Since Tysons is slated to become a mixed zoned area as well as a big employment spot, the 14 line could make a come back. As for the N11/13, I wonder how many people do travel from PG county toward the Pentagon, but I do support having a line going across the Wilson Bridge from MD to VA.

The amount of people who come in from NoVA into the federal complex in Suitland is decent enough to warrant a bus route and I'd think the PG-Pentagon/Crystal City/Alexandria traffice would support it too, however I think the big MO for re-starting service across the Wilson Bridge is National Harbor. With the whole fiasco over where to route the NH1, I've thought for a while that the NH-Branch Ave routing should be extended across to King Street to fill this hole. Besides, wasn't the N11/13 suspended because of the mess the building of the new bridges would've made?

[Tristan]

@Scrabble: I thought it was eliminated due to low ridership; never heard otherwise.  In fact it was almost terminated once just before the PTO opened, and Alex convinced WMATA to hang onto it for a sec to see if that would have an impact....I don't think PTO was at peak occupancy when they gave it the boot though.

[rideonrulez]

-I had to vote the C18 as I thought the route did REAL good ridership wise the few times I rode it.
-The RO 75 had a few riders that rode out to Urbana but not enough to say bring it back with budgets going to hell and all. What would make the service more successful would be to have Frederick Transit meet us there at the Urbana lot to Frederick. Oh well maybe in the future.
-The 14A I think had potential, but they did'nt keep that route long enough to find out what it could be.
-N11/13 I think has more potential now then it did when it operated though the new expanded Woodrow Wilson bridge just put alot of would be riders right back in there car.
-MTA 921 was a good route and probably should of been kept. Oh well it's the sign of the times...

[WMATAGMOAGH]

N11/N13 had low ridership.  I rode it once and was the only passenger.  They tried several reroutes and such to increase ridership with no success. 

I think a major issue with the 14 (and also the N11/N13) is that many potential riders had to travel a significant distance or for a significant amount of time, either by car or by mass transit, to reach it.  By the time you got to a P&R to pick it up, you might as well drive the rest of the way, especially since it couldn't use the shoulder in Virginia. 

I'd bring back the B11, though I would also operate it middays (at least to Friendship Heights) and not have it be a bi-directional service.  Out of all the various interjurisdictional routes, I think it had more potential than the others.

[Scrabbleship]

N11/N13 had low ridership.  I rode it once and was the only passenger.  They tried several reroutes and such to increase ridership with no success.

Quotes like this make me wonder why they put transit routes into the new Wilson Bridge. Of course, when it was built there was no real cross-bridge draw as there is now and anyone crossing the bridge to go, say, to Old Town has to more or less backtrack.

I think that such a route could live on Metro feed, however then the issue becomes the time savings vs. taking Metro up to L'Enfant Plaza, doing the "leap", and backtracking on the other side. An acquaintance who lives in western Alexandria and works in Suitland loves the idea of a bus, only thing is that the time savings of Metro + bus vs Metro vs driving is minimal at best.

Then again, reincarnating the route via National Harbor would get riders for sure, a lot more than something that goes from King Street to Suitland.

I'd bring back the B11, though I would also operate it middays (at least to Friendship Heights) and not have it be a bi-directional service.  Out of all the various interjurisdictional routes, I think it had more potential than the others.

I was going to actually put the B11 into the poll, but had second thoughts given that it seemed like a long haul. Now that you mention it, it makes a lot of sense since it helped increase service in several situations that could use more service (cross-Key Bridge service, Wisconsin Ave between Friendship Heights and Bethesda/Medical Center) and left a hole for Bethesda/DC service. I used to frequently do Friendship Heights to Rosslyn via bus and there always is some crowd getting off a 30's at Wisconsin & M to hit the 38B.

[NewFlyer9736BCT]

I do like the idea of the 14 line coming back, as others said, the whole Tyson's area is getting much more developed, plus people like me will finally have an easier and more direct way to NoVA from MoCo.

As for the N11/N13, I like the idea of that coming back too, mostly because there's the National Harbor now. What they could do is make one route go from Alexandria to Branch Ave Station (via Nat'l Harbor) and the other would be the same except not serving the National Harbor. To be honest, I think a route from Alexandria to National Harbor is enough, because you have the NH1 to connect you to Branch Ave Station.

B11: If you ask me, the more inter-DC/VA routes we have, the better. This would make it easier for people to go directly from Friendship Heights (or points north) to Rosslyn. However, there's also the new proposed Circulator route from Dupont Circle to Rosslyn, which seems fine too.

[Scrabbleship]

The more time I've spent in Bethesda, the more I think reviving some element of the B11 would work. I think the ridership is there for something going from Bethesda to DC because as it is there is next to no southbound service from there. I've thought for a while that having some 30's runs in rush hour do Bethesda/Archives would be a very wise idea to pursue to fill those holes. It's seems funny that 3 miles away in Silver Spring there are two trunks into DC but Bethesda requires a transfer to get to any bus in the District.

Any new service across the Wilson Bridge should involve National Harbor. Instead of reincarnating the N11/N13, bring the current NH1 across to King Street and bring back the "original" NH1 for the locals.

Return of the 14's could work when the HOT lanes come in (and interestingly the "Metrobuses only" signs for shoulder access are still up on the MD inner loop), though here's an idea to explore: MoCo-Dulles service. Red Line passengers get punished without a 5A stop and there's no redundant transit option to get from MoCo to Dulles. I think a bus that starts at Silver Spring, gets the other leg at Medical Center or Grosvenor, then takes 495 into Tysons or the Toll Road might be a good route that'd make its money.

[WMATAGMOAGH]

The more time I've spent in Bethesda, the more I think reviving some element of the B11 would work. I think the ridership is there for something going from Bethesda to DC because as it is there is next to no southbound service from there. I've thought for a while that having some 30's runs in rush hour do Bethesda/Archives would be a very wise idea to pursue to fill those holes. It's seems funny that 3 miles away in Silver Spring there are two trunks into DC but Bethesda requires a transfer to get to any bus in the District.


Any new service across the Wilson Bridge should involve National Harbor. Instead of reincarnating the N11/N13, bring the current NH1 across to King Street and bring back the "original" NH1 for the locals.

Return of the 14's could work when the HOT lanes come in (and interestingly the "Metrobuses only" signs for shoulder access are still up on the MD inner loop), though here's an idea to explore: MoCo-Dulles service. Red Line passengers get punished without a 5A stop and there's no redundant transit option to get from MoCo to Dulles. I think a bus that starts at Silver Spring, gets the other leg at Medical Center or Grosvenor, then takes 495 into Tysons or the Toll Road might be a good route that'd make its money.

There are signs up on the Outer Loop too by the River Road exit for merging Metrobuses.

Red Line riders are "punished" by not having a connection to the 5A?  Considering that it takes 20-40 minutes to get from most places along the western end of the Red Line to Dulles by car or taxi, if we ignore the difference in cost for a moment, why would anyone want to take the Red Line into town and then take the 5A out to Dulles assuming they could order a cab, could drive themselves, or get someone else to drive?  I've never even considered taking transit to reach Dulles from home.  Where would the 5A logically connect to the Red Line anyway?  Does this mean that everyone except the Green Line riders are "punished" by not having B30 service?

They could take the 31 and send it to Rosslyn instead of Foggy Bottom, and maybe have some rush hour trippers (call one of these routes the 33 instead) go to Foggy Bottom on the 31 route.  I don't think the 31 would be missed too much on that short section east of Wisconsin Avenue.  It would be an interesting experiment, but perhaps the 31 could also go up to Bethesda and it could somehow be coordinated with the Ride On service in that corridor.  I think the original B11 failed because of a lack of coordination on the schedules between the B11 and the other routes in that corridor.  It was often scheduled to show up a minute or two before or after the 42 (I forget what the schedule called for) so everyone just got on whichever bus came first.  The route probably would have also done better with some off-peak service, but that isn't what MD provided funding for.  However, all that being said, I'm not so sure why spending time in Bethesda makes you think that such a service is guaranteed to be successful, and many riders will still need to transfer at some point to get to onward points unless all the various trunks have at least one route extended up to Bethesda, which probably isn't necessary.  The service between Friendship Heights and Bethesda is frequent enough that a rider can get between the two easily enough, one seat rides to Friendship Heights are available from many points in DC, and I can't think of anywhere important off the top of my head that is more than a two seat ride from Bethesda.

I'd like to see a second attempt of the 14s once the HOT lanes are completed.  VDOT gave the first incarnation a death sentence by forcing the buses to sit in the same traffic as all the regular cars, people won't use public transit if there is no perceived benefit in doing so.  But why should the 14 start from Silver Spring?  You have no service in Bethesda or at job centers that people in VA might want to get to such as Rock Spring under your proposal if I understand it correctly..

I'd also like to see a Wilson Bridge route brought back in some form and seeing if National Harbor can make those routes work.

[Scrabbleship]

My ideal list of routes for a 14's revival would probably look like this:

Bethesda/Medical Center-Tysons Corner
Silver Spring/Medical Center-Dulles (via Tysons Corner)*
Montgomery Mall (Rock Spring)-West Falls Church (via Tysons Corner)
Rockville (/Twinbrook/White Flint)-Rosslyn (via GW Parkway)**

* Depending on logistics could also be routed via 495 to Grosvenor.
** Would meet with the Montgomery Mall-Tysons-WFC route for transfers between the two routes.

In a perfect world, all the routes would meet at a park-and-ride near the Potomac to coordinate transfers between the routes, only problem with that is there's no room for one. If such park-and-ride was on the Virginia side, integrating the 15K/L into this might also work.