In today's Washington Post, there is a very well written editorial that echoes many posts that Wayne, among others, has made here on this forum. It also touches up on some ideas I wanted to share with others here about the current issues facing WMATA in a new thread, that I may (or may not) eventually get around to composing. Here is the editorial:
Quote
Charity on wheels
[size=-1] Sunday, May 23, 2010; A16
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NOT MANY THINGS in life are impervious to price increases, but riding a Metrobus is close. In the past two decades, the price of a bus ride has risen by an average of just a penny a year, less than half the rate of inflation. At the same time, the cost of that ride borne by Metro has roughly tripled. The result is that Metro's subsidy for bus passengers is now on the order of $350 million annually. That's more than twice its subsidy for rail passengers, who comprise almost two-thirds of the system's total daily riders.
On its face, this is unfair to rail passengers, whose fares have soared in recent years as bus fares have barely inched up. Jim Graham (D-Ward 1), the D.C. Council member who has championed bus riders on the Metro board since 1999, argues that (mainly urban) bus passengers on average are poorer and more transit-dependent than (mainly suburban) rail passengers, so subsidizing them at a higher rate is fair. Wielding the threat of vetoing Metro budgets, Mr. Graham has beaten back repeated attempts to increase bus fares.
The problem is that artificially low bus fares are contributing to Metro's status as a pauper transit system now trying to close a $189 million deficit in next year's budget of $1.4 billion. Fares paid by bus passengers cover barely 30 percent of the real cost of the ride, lower than the historical norm; by contrast, rail fares cover about 80 percent of the real cost, higher than the historical norm. Bus fares also lag behind those of most other major transit systems around the country. Bus passengers in the District who have SmarTrip cards pay $1.25 for a bus ride, while Chicagoans, San Franciscans, New Yorkers and Seattleites pay $2 or more in their cities.
This is no way to run a railway or a bus system, as even Mr. Graham acknowledges implicitly. He has consented to a 25-cent increase in bus fares in the fiscal year starting in July (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/13/AR2010051305448.html). That's a step in the right direction -- although it's not enough to bring Metrobus in line with other major transit networks.
The deeper problem remains Metro's balkanized governance, and specifically a board of directors that pits suburban representatives from Virginia against state representatives from Maryland against city representatives from the District -- and allows each a veto. Of course, Metro cannot climb out of its budgetary hole exclusively on the backs of bus riders. But it is also unlikely to solve its long-term money and safety problems without overhauling an antiquated governing structure that was better suited to building a transit system than running one.
My take on it is this: I fully agree with the notion that Jim Graham is hurting WMATA as an entire organization in his stalwart defense of the bus riders who are his constituents. The current 1.25 fare is a huge bargain when compared to other cities, the rate at which fares have increased historicaly, and Metro's current financial plight. I thought it was a huge mistake when Metro didn't raise fares for 8 years (and even decreased them in some instances over that span) in the 1990s. I thought the recent fare increases haven't been significant enough (a nickel here and a dime there, usually to please Jim Graham, don't add up today to much of anything). But considering that the bus lines seem to have been almost unaltered since WMATA's takeover, with tons of redundancy, confusing route designations and variations, and a lack of true limited and express services that most modern bus systems now have, the bus network should be revamped to meet today's needs, not the needs of the 1970s and 1980s. The fare ought to reflect the realities, financial and otherwise, of the current times, and not the past, which means it needs to go up.
With regards to the editorial taking issue with the Metro board structure, I don't think the system of representatives from each of the three jurisdictions (and now the federal government) is problematic in and of itself. However, I do think that the current board members are generally unqualified to serve on the board. They are looking out for their own constituencies, which is to be expected, but they have no regional outlook and generally no transportation management experience, and it shows in the way they make decisions. Should there be some politicians on this board? Probably, since at the end of the day, WMATA needs money from the various jurisdictions to be able to operate. But getting some people with transportation experience or who can see beyond politics to have a regional outlook would help, too.
Oren, Well said!! I do see Jim Graham's side of the argument about the lower income ride the bus in most cases. But honestly the bus fare has been way too low for too long. But maybe it has to do with the high cost of living in the DC area? I'm saying this because cities like Chicago that have a lower cost of living pay $2.25 to ride the bus.
Quote from: rideonrulez on May 23, 2010, 10:54:05 AM
Oren, Well said!! I do see Jim Graham's side of the argument about the lower income ride the bus in most cases. But honestly the bus fare has been way too low for too long. But maybe it has to do with the high cost of living in the DC area? I'm saying this because cities like Chicago that have a lower cost of living pay $2.25 to ride the bus.
This is what I've always thought. With DC's cost of living so high, the cost of transit (bus wise and short rail trip wise) is a thrown bone towards those people who are paying a lot otherwise. Similar case exists in Boston where the MBTA's passes are obscenely low ($15 for a weekly pass, $59 for a monthly). Then again, Chicago does have passes and they save out in the end versus DC.
I would say hike the bus fares and reform rail fares (it's going to have to happen once the Silver Line comes into play, the current max cap at 10+ miles off-peak/15+ miles peak might be a bit too low). And maybe hire some CTA/MBTA people to fix the mess at Metro.
Quote from: Scrabbleship on May 24, 2010, 12:17:04 PM
Quote from: rideonrulez on May 23, 2010, 10:54:05 AM
Oren, Well said!! I do see Jim Graham's side of the argument about the lower income ride the bus in most cases. But honestly the bus fare has been way too low for too long. But maybe it has to do with the high cost of living in the DC area? I'm saying this because cities like Chicago that have a lower cost of living pay $2.25 to ride the bus.
This is what I've always thought. With DC's cost of living so high, the cost of transit (bus wise and short rail trip wise) is a thrown bone towards those people who are paying a lot otherwise. Similar case exists in Boston where the MBTA's passes are obscenely low ($15 for a weekly pass, $59 for a monthly). Then again, Chicago does have passes and they save out in the end versus DC.
I would say hike the bus fares and reform rail fares (it's going to have to happen once the Silver Line comes into play, the current max cap at 10+ miles off-peak/15+ miles peak might be a bit too low). And maybe hire some CTA/MBTA people to fix the mess at Metro.
Care to explain your obsession with the MBTA?
Quote from: WMATAGMOAGH on May 24, 2010, 02:00:13 PM
Quote from: Scrabbleship on May 24, 2010, 12:17:04 PM
Quote from: rideonrulez on May 23, 2010, 10:54:05 AM
Oren, Well said!! I do see Jim Graham's side of the argument about the lower income ride the bus in most cases. But honestly the bus fare has been way too low for too long. But maybe it has to do with the high cost of living in the DC area? I'm saying this because cities like Chicago that have a lower cost of living pay $2.25 to ride the bus.
This is what I've always thought. With DC's cost of living so high, the cost of transit (bus wise and short rail trip wise) is a thrown bone towards those people who are paying a lot otherwise. Similar case exists in Boston where the MBTA's passes are obscenely low ($15 for a weekly pass, $59 for a monthly). Then again, Chicago does have passes and they save out in the end versus DC.
I would say hike the bus fares and reform rail fares (it's going to have to happen once the Silver Line comes into play, the current max cap at 10+ miles off-peak/15+ miles peak might be a bit too low). And maybe hire some CTA/MBTA people to fix the mess at Metro.
Care to explain your obsession with the MBTA?
1: They've kind of made it out of a period where deferred maintenance was taking its toll on them in the 90's-early 2000's. Of course, theirs was truly deferred, Metro spend nothing on preventative maintenance.
2: Boston doesn't have a Jim Graham keeping their fares artificially low and the poor people there "suffer" with bus fares of $1.25 CharlieCard/$1.50 cash-ticket with no subsidies for poor areas and rail fares of $1.70 CharlieCard/$2.00 cash-ticket.
3: True monthly/weekly passes that are CHEAP!! $15 weekly/$59 monthly. Right now, the combo of a 7-day all rides Metrorail pass + a weekly Metrobus pass is $52 and change. Something there isn't right.
4: Unlike MARC and VRE, the MBCR arm of MBTA at least cajoled weekend service spots from Amtrak and CSX and didn't backtrack when the going got tough.
5: Buses on key bus routes on the MBTA come at shorter headways than their Metrobus counterparts.
I know the MBTA has its faults. They gypped Washington Street of a true Orange Line replacement (not that the El should've been demolished). The E between Heath Street and Forest Hills (and, going back, the A to Watertown) shouldn't have been cut. The B branch near Boston College makes the Red Line at rush hour seem sane. They still seem to be going in a better direction than the assorted transit of the DC area which is about to explode.
I always thought Metrobus fares were far too low also. I can side with Graham only to a certain (small) extent. I think fare hikes and so on need to be spread somewhat more evenly. I think WMATA needs to do more like transit agencies in other major cities. I'm not at all insensitive to low income people in the inner city, especially since that how I grew up. However, I'm against keeping the bus fare barely above $1, yet a one-way Metrorail fare can cost up to $4.60!!! I'll say it again... As much as I'm pro-transit, there's no way I'd get out of my car now in favor of Metrorail. If I did, it would cost me a whopping $180 per month in Metrorail fares.
I think either way driving or taking transit, people are both somewhat screwed. If you live around the Baltimore area, insurance premiums are high because of the fact that we were named the most dangerous city for drivers where people who filed a claim had at least 1 prior accident. Now only that, the increases in so many vehicle services (title, tag, DL fees, etc). On the transit side, it's been mainly a political circus where things are really wacky. I'm pro-transit myself but you have alot of politicians whove never set foot on a Metrobus or MTA bus and really found out how things are not as effective as they should be. The funding for various agencies have suffered from alot of reasons. I remember a couple times where alot of cities were putting at least half of their system on the chopping block as scare tactics to get emergency funding. It's a very risky idea because it affects your patronage and ridership for those who depend on public transportation. What this area needs is something California had passed recently: Measure R http://www.metro.net/projects/measurer/. If people really do care about getting to and from work much more effeciently, at least try to sway State and Federal legislatures to think like them since they are the backbone of the government.
@Scrabbleship
Weekend service on MARC between Baltimore and Washington will not likely happen anytime soon or even in the next few years because Baltimore is a major freight hub. CSX has 4 yards (Locust Point, Bayview, Penn Mary, Curtis Bay) and a chokepoint of the Howard Street tunnel. There is a bulk of freight traffic on the weekends and most of the traffic traveling through or originating in Baltimore heads towards the South along the busiest CSX lines. Also, CSX is trying to get out of the commuter rail business because they just don't want to run Camden and Brunswick anymore. As for Amtrak, running MARC trains compromises other Amtrak train schedules and also with recent trackwork underway, would make it next to impossible to run a fairly smooth system on the weekend. MARC commuters who have monthly and weekly tickets can take select Regional trains (since the bulk of commuters have monthly and weekly tickets). In addition, I doubt the federal government would have weekend business occuring in addition to the weekday business (just too costly).
Metrobus fares have gone up a full 35 cents (25 cents if you pay with Smartrip) since the 1995 fare increase. That is a steal.
Jason, your reasons for your MBTA obsession aren't persuading me. WMATA has had rough times and has generally been able to pull out of them. OK, this one is more serious, but it is ridiculous IMO to catastrophize about WMATA's current situation when other systems have managed turnarounds.
The MBTA fares are not as simple as you make them out to be. Ever ride to Riverside or Braintree? In the pre CharlieCard days (I haven't been on the MBTA since 2005), you needed 2.50 in coins to board an inbound green line at some stations.
I highly doubt the MBTA bus headways are significantly different than WMATA's. Maybe they remain on schedule better in Boston, but is all the traffic in DC WMATA's fault?
I can't imagine MARC has a high demand for weekend service. MDOT would do just as well by heavily subsidizing AMTK fares such that they were comprable to MARC fares for purchases between Baltimore, BWI, and Washington at times when MARC doesn't run.
What is your obsession with monthly and weekly passes? It is difficult to offer fair pass discounts on a distance based fare system like WMATA's. BART makes no attempt, saying the different fares for each rider make passes next to impossible.
Quote from: WMATAGMOAGH on May 25, 2010, 02:27:21 AM
What is your obsession with monthly and weekly passes? It is difficult to offer fair pass discounts on a distance based fare system like WMATA's. BART makes no attempt, saying the different fares for each rider make passes next to impossible.
If they tried breaking things down into "zones", it may work. Go further than what your pass allows, then you have to pay the exit fare.
Does Smartrip offer ANY discounts on Metrorail?
Out of curiosity, with WMATA's bus fare structure (3 hours unlimited transfers and Smartrip discount), what do you guys believe would be a fair price to pay for a Metrobus ride, not considering operational cost and all those technical financial things? I still find $2 to be an outrageous base fare.
No discount for using Smartrip on Metrorail as of now. That may change with the new fare structure.
I take issue with the idea of a zone system, unless you want to only have zones apply for passes. If the zones only apply to passes, then that is a great idea and imagine you could develop concentric zones around the center of town to create fair fares (travel from an outlying zone to another outlying zone might be harder to price). However, if you are proposing zones for all fares, I don't think that would work so well because the mileage based system means you pay for how far you actually go. However, if someone wants to ride just from one station to the next one or the one after and then crosses a fare zone, they get walloped while someone traveling further might pay less.
To answer your second question, I'd say the fair price for a Metrobus ride is $1.10 plus adjustments from changes in inflation and the cost of living from 1995 until the present time. The $1.10 for a ride was in line, from my best recollection, with other TAs at that time. WMATA is now dirt cheap compared to most major systems. I agree $2 or more is probably too much, but the fare probably should be at least $1.50 now, and a fare of about $1.75 after the next round of increases wouldn't be too unreasonable in my mind.
The three hour transfer window was a joke and I hope it is eliminated. There is a lot of revenue being lost with that, especially since it seems each tap starts a new 3 hour window. Great for busfanning but horrible for the piggybank.
NOTE: The numbers I list above are cash fares, not Smartrip fares. I'm all for small Smartrip discounts though.
Oren, Oren Oren...
I think that WMATA in its current state is a unsustainable organization. When was the last time anyone has said anything positive about WMATA? Ever since Catoe began to now it's just been all doom and gloom and frankly the rail end has taken too much of the abuse in terms of higher fares and always being singled out for hikes and all. The fear of taking on the Bowtied One-Man BRU makes matters worse because frankly the bus fare could stand to be higher and the precious poor people would survive just like the poor people in Baltimore. Or New York. Or Philadelphia. Or parts of Boston. Or Chicago. And so forth. It could easily be hiked to $2 and people will survive.
As for weekend commuter rail, I think that if it existed it'd be a bigger hit than anyone here realizes. I hear all the time from people on the fringes (a sample ranging from Frederick to Stafford to Odenton) wishing that MARC/VRE ran weekends and would gladly pay any premiums vs driving to Metro and riding Metro in. Don't even get started on people in Baltimore wanting to go to DC/in DC wanting to go to Baltimore or BWI. At the same time, weekend commuter rail service would benefit places on the fringe such as Frederick, Harpers Ferry, Fredericksburg, Manassas, and more that would get day trippers from DC. The 9-to-5 mindset of this area is a bit depressing.
I seriously think that the Metro fare system has gotten way out of hand and they should've never done distance-based pricing. Look at how nobody else has adopted it in recent years and many (such as Baltimore or the aborted MBTA plans) have backed away from it. Flat-fare it at, say, $2.50 off-peak, $3.00 peak and things will work just fine.
Fixed fare zones regardless of location are a bad idea, I cite CalTrain as exhibit A and PAT as Exhibit B (especially with some of those routes that weave fare zones). I think that if Metro were to utilize them, it'd make sense to use the current distance metrics to begin the zones at outlying stations (Zone 1 being under 6 miles, Zone 2 6-12 miles, Zone 3 12+ miles, then introduce a Zone 4 once the Silver Line starts). Maps and charts at every station will keep it somewhat simple. My dream setup would be something like this.
Zone 1/Base: $2.00
Zone 2: $2.50
Zone 3: $3.00
Peak Hours: $.50 surcharge
The current proposed hikes will devastate Metro and will become crippling and make other major cities seem relatively placid in terms of fares.
Your idea of weekend travelers on MARC being able to get to places such as Frederick and Harpers Ferry is impractical IMHO. No trains are stored overnight in Washington, so they wouldn't be able to run out there on any sort of convenient schedule. Also, the train isn't competitive to a car in terms of travel time on the weekend to places like those. Same issue with the storage for VRE trains, but travel times might be more competitive with cars since NOVA weekend traffic can still be pretty bad. I think it is fair to say that most people living out there who ride MARC have access to cars and therefore can drive in to the nearest Metro station with a parking lot and get into DC that way. I just don't see the demand or need for that sort of service in these financial times.
How exactly is the distance based fare system "out of hand"? How come it hasn't been considered that way for the past 33 years, since it was instituted in 1977? The proposal of flat fares for WMATA was last seriously considered back when Richard Page was general manager. It didn't get instituted then, and it certainly won't get instituted now. It is inherintly unfair to people living in the center of the city, as they will pay significantly more for their shorter trips, while riders coming in from Franconia-Springfield and Shady Grove will be bankrobbers, paying low fares to travel long distances across jurisdictional lines. Read Dr. Gridlock's post on the matter today and you'll get a sense as to why flat fares can't work in DC. I'd be interested in knowing why Boston ended its distance based pricing scheme because it made sense, the branches going furthest away from the city (Riverside and Braintree) paid the most. The Baltimore Metro line doesn't go nearly as far from downtown as Metrorail lines in DC do (and those fares are probably lower than it should be, since Baltimore gets more transit funding from Annapolis than the DC area does by a number of metrics). Seeing as no subway that I know of in the United States has a flat fare starting at $2.50 at any time of day, why should WMATA? You seriously want to charge someone $3 to ride from Woodley Park to Judiciary Square during rush hour, as an example of a relatively short ride, yet someone coming from Shady Grove would pay the same?
(Fun fact of the day: WMATA did have a flat fare for its first 15 months of operation, 40 cents off peak, 55 cents peak, collected in bus fareboxes, since the AFC equipment didn't come on line until July 1, 1977.)
You say the proposed fare increases will devastate Metro and cripple it. I say flat fares resulting in decreased revenues or not increasing fares enough over the past 15 years will cripple it (as well as the lack of dedicated funding and the cuts in subsidies from the various jurisdictions).
No one is afraid of taking on Jim Graham. Board members argue in meetings with each other all the time. The issue is that any one jurisdiction can practically veto an entire fare increase proposal even if the other two would go along with the proposal, and Jim Graham often uses the veto tactic to ensure that bus fares stay low. Let's not create wild assumptions for what Metro's problems are, but instead, focus on the realities of the situations at hand.
In the transit industry, no news is good news. Riders don't send in comment cards to Metro or write letters to the Washington Post or call WTOP when their rides are uneventful, smooth, pleasant, and on time. They do when the trains are late, dirty, crowded, and uncomfortable. Also, the media doesn't make much off stories about the former situations, but crave the latter. That is why you aren't hearing any positive news about WMATA. Are things great these days? They certainly have been better at other times in WMATA's history. But people have been complaining about Metro for as long as I can remember, they always find something to complain about, and will always do so, even if things turn around.
I'm a firm believer in the "if you build it, they will come" strategy. You really think that if weekend service on MARC/VRE existed that nobody would ride it? When did you last speak to someone who lived a distance from Metro but alongside MARC/VRE? All I hear from them about how much easier it'd be if (MARC/VRE) ran on weekends versus driving all the way up to (insert closest Metro terminal here). I think storing a couple trainsets overnight on Friday/Saturday in DC is feasible and doable.
How is it unfair for people in the center of DC to pay above what will probably be $1.60/$1.90 to ride Metro when it's just as if not more unfair for those in other cities to pay more for similar short trips? Is it inherently right for someone in New York to pay the same $2.25 to go from Grand Central to Penn Station as it is for one to go from Forest Hills to Wall Street? Same practical deal. Besides, the $2.50 ceiling has be broken by someone already (Sacramento RT) and the $3 ceiling has already been broken up in Canada granted that Ottawa doesn't fund transit. I think all should pay their fare share and the high Metrorail fares are as unfair to those who don't get pretax transit benefits who have long commutes as keeping the Metrobus fare low is to appease the "precious poor".
Boston eliminated its extra fares for Riverside/Braintree because the trend is to have simpler fares, not more complicated fares. WMATA is the only TA that hasn't gotten this memo.
The whole "one jurisdiction can veto something" part of the WMATA compact is something that should never have been put into place? Whose grand idea was it to violate the convention of 2 against 1? My take is someone has to take Graham on and say that the low fare party for the poor people is over. In reality, WMATA should be dismantled, replaced with something more fare and modern which starting from scratch could be born non-union. Of course, nobody has the daring to do that.
Personal rant: I don't get a pre-tax benefit and work for a company that is in limbo (former CEO defrauded the government and is indicted, but he's stalling a sale). Where I work (White Flint), live (Silver Spring), have friends/social commitments (DC), and a significant other (North Arlington) are four totally dissimilar places. This fare increase is going to hit me a lot as it's going to mean a lot $5 fares for me if I go from work to the latter two. Seeing people in Boston, NYC, and Philly get a lot more for far less makes me wonder why DC can't have such nice things. Metro needs to stop acting as a quasi commuter railroad and realize it isn't 1976 anymore.
How about passes based on miles traveled/costs of fares? Maybe something like a pass that would be good for unlimited trips up to 3.00. Anything more than that would result in exit fare charge.
This leads itself to abuse, yes, but how about making a card used to exit a station invalid for 18 minutes or so. I think the technology is out there to make this possible, although this really shouldn't be WMATA's priority right now.
Interesting to hear about the outrcry against mileage based fares. I know I've heard rumblings about doing it on at least one other agency on current subway lines, but that was shot down by stakeholders. The thing is that with WMATArail, the service rivals commuter rail in terms of distance, especially when the Dulles Line is completed. It makes it more palatable to have the lines run with mileage based fares like a commuter rail, especially since there is a lot of suburban to city commutership. The PATCO line from Philadelphia to Lindenwold has a similar fare structure that predates the WMATA system. However, the fares aren't as extreme was WMATA, with a low fare of $1.25 between Philadelphia and Walter Rand Transportation Center in Camden. Thankfully, though, they have a tollway to help subsidize the line.
Given the cut in what areas get maximum fares (the Shady Grove-Medical Center example is not even 10 miles but it's supposed to go maximum fare in peak fare, the current cap is 15 miles in peak), I think Metro is trying to move people to passes by making the cash fare so crippling for anyone to pay.
What's sad is we've passed the point where a Metrobus weekly + a Metrorail weekly cost more than an MBTA monthly. Sadder is once you rip out the carpet and reverse the anti-food/drink attitude, MBTA wipes the floor with WMATA any day. Why do we have such an overpriced, substandard agency that screws long distance commuters over so the short distance people don't whine.
The people paying $1.90 for a peak rail ride while people are paying $5+ for 9 miles in peak should just deal like the people in NYC, Boston, Philly, Chicago, Atlanta, well anywhere. Maybe we should take our lessons from Sacramento ($2.50 base, no transfers)...
Fares get rounded up to the nearest nickel, so my guess is that is what happens to the Shady Grove-Medical Center fare.
I still don't get the point in comparing WMATA's prices for passes to the MBTA's. Passes don't work well on a mileage based system like WMATA's. Why aren't you up in arms about BART's lack of monthly passes?
Metro did simplify its fare structure, especially for buses, back in the late 1990s. I already pointed out why the mileage based system is here to stay, like it or not, and you can reread those points again if you want to, I'm not typing out the same argument again.
Considering how much it would cost to operate MARC/VRE train (never mind the deadheading issues I presented), if only enough people to fill one car ride, it isn't going to be worth it. Build it and they will come often works in transit, but it is debatable if the theory works for a commuter line that is going to only operate a few times a day on a weekend.
WMATA should not be dismantled, unless you want to ensure you can bitch and moan while the replacement is instituted. WMATA needs some reforms, not a total dismantlement. Lots of people think the jurisdictional veto on fares is counterproductive, but I don't know if anyone will have the nerve to change it. Jim Graham might take advantage of it now, but who isn't to say that MD or VA will want it in the future? Unfortunate, but it is the reality.
The people only paying 1.90 in DC don't live in New York. Who cares if someone riding a comprable distance in another city pays more?
WMATA is a quasi-commuter rail and always will be, especially during the peak. It isn't changing. As for your personal travel needs, the fare system can't revolve around you or anyone else. I'm sorry if I come across as insensitive in this regard but you make or made life decisions, and there are consequences that come with making those decisions. Maybe you can get a pass some weeks if you travel alot. Maybe some of your friends can meet you halfway to share the burden of fares. It is public transportation, and therefore has to cater to many people's needs. Also, it is starved for money, and the realities of the DC area are that we are used to paying based on distance for rail fares. It has been that way for 33 years and there is really no reason that I can see to change it, just because other cities have flat fares.
We have an agency teetering on being substandard because of a lack of funding. I don't think people would call it overpriced, most of the public indicated it wanted fare increases to retain current service levels. No one seriously suggested going to a flat fare during that process. If anything, as has been discussed elsewhere in this thread, parts of it are UNDERPRICED. It seems to me as if you are fairly unique in your views.
Brandon: You could also set the capped pass you suggest to not count rides that start/end in the same place towards reaching the cap. Another idea would be to design the Smartrip to cap fares like they do in London where the Oyster card calculates your cheapest fare over time. For example, if paying as you go would lead to your rides costing more than a monthly travel card, it adjusts what you pay to be equal to the monthly travel card (actually slightly less as an incentive to use Oyster cards).
Subchat rant (from someone else) on why weekend MARC service might benefit Baltimore with the influx of DC people who would want to go there (http://www.subchat.com/read.asp?Id=938081)
And a blurb from a GGW comment about why everyone's complaints are valid:
Metro's hybrid nature means that you're applying commuter rail-like pricing to what would otherwise be inner-city subway trips. Alewife to Park Street - about 5.5 miles as the crow flies, 16 minutes by the schedule, $1.70 with a Charlie Card.
Friendship Heights to Metro Center - About 5.9 miles as the crow flies, 14 minutes by the schedule, currently $2.40 at peak hours. With latest fare increases and PotP, we're talking $2.45 per trip.
When people complain about other places having a flat fare while DC does not, to me that merely reflects the fact that urban riders making short trips end up paying much more than other comparable transit trips in the US.
Maybe it's time to do a flat fare within the District boundaries and stations right on the line and hose the people from further out...
Boo hoo. I'd still rather pay 2.45 to take Metrorail than drive there any day, and no one coming in from Shady Grove should get to make a trip of that length for a comparable amount IMO.
I saw that thread. The only potentially viable weekend service for MARC is probably the Penn Line. Even so, see my suggestion for having MDOT just subsidize fares for weekend/evening trips on AMTK between BAL, BWI, NCR, and WAS.
Hmm...I would think that people coming from Baltimore would want to go to DC, rather than simply the reverse, lol. Just have trips start and end on the outer branches of the lines. When the economy picks up and transit has a little bit of money to play with, I'd certainly would hope MARC, and especially VRE, would take a look at trying to serve DC on at least Saturdays, even with a few trips a day. Ridership can't be that low in general with all of the double deckers they are running. Even if there was a MetroDirect service (via OmniRide), it would be something.
Quote from: Tritransit Area on May 28, 2010, 02:23:16 PM
Hmm...I would think that people coming from Baltimore would want to go to DC, rather than simply the reverse, lol. Just have trips start and end on the outer branches of the lines. When the economy picks up and transit has a little bit of money to play with, I'd certainly would hope MARC, and especially VRE, would take a look at trying to serve DC on at least Saturdays, even with a few trips a day. Ridership can't be that low in general with all of the double deckers they are running. Even if there was a MetroDirect service (via OmniRide), it would be something.
Wasn't Metro Direct on Saturdays once proposed, but Prince William County (whose board has overlap with the PRTC board) voted it down due to cost even though it'd bring choice riders to the system (read: DC/Arlington people bound for Potomac Mills) that'd put money in the local economy?
Quote from: Tritransit Area on May 28, 2010, 02:23:16 PM
Hmm...I would think that people coming from Baltimore would want to go to DC, rather than simply the reverse, lol. Just have trips start and end on the outer branches of the lines. When the economy picks up and transit has a little bit of money to play with, I'd certainly would hope MARC, and especially VRE, would take a look at trying to serve DC on at least Saturdays, even with a few trips a day. Ridership can't be that low in general with all of the double deckers they are running. Even if there was a MetroDirect service (via OmniRide), it would be something.
The initial suggestion somewhere in one of the two threads on the subject was for service to Harpers Ferry. Those trains spend the night and weekend out west, so the idea of having service starting from DC in the morning is infeasible IMHO. The Penn Line is a different case, and there would likely be traffic in both directions, and I think a Penn Line train or two might spend the night in DC but I'm not 100% sure, I'd have to glance at the timetable.
I had started drafting a potential weekend schedule for the F/S Metro Direct when I was at PRTC, but we scrapped it when we knew we wouldn't get funding even though it would have been relatively inexpensive. I was even going to propose that if they couldn't do that to have a FFX Connector route extend to the Woodbridge VRE where it would at least interface with the Woodbridge OmniLink that would go to Potomac Mills. By the time I was thinking that along with extending the Cross County Connector to Gainesville (had a great routing for it planned too), I packed my bags and moved to Vegas where instead of moving 2 million pax per year, I'm moving 60 million.
Quote from: WMATAGMOAGH on May 29, 2010, 02:28:54 PM
Quote from: Tritransit Area on May 28, 2010, 02:23:16 PM
Hmm...I would think that people coming from Baltimore would want to go to DC, rather than simply the reverse, lol. Just have trips start and end on the outer branches of the lines. When the economy picks up and transit has a little bit of money to play with, I'd certainly would hope MARC, and especially VRE, would take a look at trying to serve DC on at least Saturdays, even with a few trips a day. Ridership can't be that low in general with all of the double deckers they are running. Even if there was a MetroDirect service (via OmniRide), it would be something.
The initial suggestion somewhere in one of the two threads on the subject was for service to Harpers Ferry. Those trains spend the night and weekend out west, so the idea of having service starting from DC in the morning is infeasible IMHO. The Penn Line is a different case, and there would likely be traffic in both directions, and I think a Penn Line train or two might spend the night in DC but I'm not 100% sure, I'd have to glance at the timetable.
It was one of several suggestions. I think weekend Penn Line service is sorely needed (ditto the VRE Fredericksburg Line) but I think that the Brunswick Line and the VRE Manassas Line could also support Weekend service as well. As for the trains spending the night out west/south/north, do what the (yes, I'm citing them again) MBTA does on its lines: run one early morning (depart Martinsburg/Baltimore/Manassas/Fredericksburg) train at around 7:00 AM to Union to get people wanting to be in town early. That train becomes the first outbound departure leaving sometime in the 9:00 AM hour. Keep this going and have the last inbound leave sometime around 8:00-9:00 PM and the last outbound leave around 10:30-11:00 or so. Trains still spend the night in their yard, everyone wins...even the kicking and screaming CSX. Besides, there always seem to be assorted MARC cars hanging around Union on the weekends, why not put them to good use?
The only thing keeping weekend MARC/VRE service from happening is the short-sightedness in Annapolis/Richmond and their use of Moco & PG/NoVA as an ATM so the Chestertowns and Cape Charleses can get their money.
Quote from: WMATAGMOAGH on May 28, 2010, 05:04:26 AM
Metro did simplify its fare structure, especially for buses, back in the late 1990s. I already pointed out why the mileage based system is here to stay, like it or not, and you can reread those points again if you want to, I'm not typing out the same argument again.
Having three different fare levels when I can't think of another agency that has two isn't simplification. Even BART doesn't have time-of-day fares level and has most of San Francisco in one zone. Why can't that work with Metro and why do we have to do peaks and peaks-of-peaks and have peaks be a bit too long in span (I'd think 6:00-9:00 and 3:30-6:30 would make a lot more sense for peak fares). There has to be a happy medium somewhere to placate everyone.
QuoteWMATA should not be dismantled, unless you want to ensure you can bitch and moan while the replacement is instituted. WMATA needs some reforms, not a total dismantlement.
Like New York State government, I think WMATA in its current state is beyond any state of reform. I think there has been too much of the same for anyone to want change and it'll make the problem only worse and worse until it has to be blown up. What reforms would you do without being able to expel board members or bust ATU 689? Is such a thing even humanly possible?
QuoteWe have an agency teetering on being substandard because of a lack of funding. I don't think people would call it overpriced, most of the public indicated it wanted fare increases to retain current service levels.
But did they want increases so steep and high? These increases are going to only drive commuters back to their cars and defeat the purpose of Metro. Metro's backed itself into a corner with things such as the food policy (not that I condone it but if the CTA can ban food and drink and yet have food vendors steps from fare control, so can Metro) and the fare system that it can't think outside the box to save itself. Besides, Metro could close at least a half-dozen stations during off-peak hours and save money that way but they'd never have the daring to do it.
QuoteIf anything, as has been discussed elsewhere in this thread, parts of it are UNDERPRICED. It seems to me as if you are fairly unique in your views.
On this board, yes. In general, no. I think there's a major difference between people who have lived here their whole lives and those who have come from elsewhere who have a something else to compare it to.
Quote from: Scrabbleship on June 01, 2010, 09:08:38 AM
QuoteIf anything, as has been discussed elsewhere in this thread, parts of it are UNDERPRICED. It seems to me as if you are fairly unique in your views.
On this board, yes. In general, no. I think there's a major difference between people who have lived here their whole lives and those who have come from elsewhere who have a something else to compare it to.
No Jason, you're not at all alone. In regards to Metrorail's fares, I'm in total agreement with you. I think Oren is correct in that they'll probably retain distance based fares, which in my opinion is very unfortunate.
I think Metrorail fares are simply insane. A legal form of highway roberry, price gouging etc. They're very unfair to those outside of the city limits and I totally understand why people choose to stay in their cars. I did see on the news where more people favored fare increases over service cuts. First, I'd wonder how many of those people have experienced transit systems in other major US cities, and also how many were federal employees who probably wouldn't care as they get heavily subsidized MetroCheks.
I'm all for a flat fare for Metrorail and I think your earlier examples were right on-point. If Metrorail had flat fares of let's say $2.50 or so, people (especially those in DC) would probably re-think their travel options, especially with Metrobus being so cheap. I realize to try to compare transit systems is almost always like comparing apples and oranges. However, looking at MARTA, NYCTA, MBTA, CTA, SFMTA, SEPTA, I refuse to believe that Metrorail fares are even remotely close to being fair. I feel for WMATA because it doesn't have a dedicated funding source, but I think Metrorail riders outside of the District are being bent over for every ride.
I've never wished anything bad on WMATA and I still won't, but I totally understand why more people are driving and I fully expect more to get back in their cars with the next fare increase.
I think of how MARTA doesn't have dedicated funding either plus has to deal with assorted battles (Atlanta v. rest of Georgia) and quite outdated stereotypes (often pertaining to race and/or crime) and I wonder why they're not hurting for cash a la WMATA. Of course, all the people from Atlanta wish MARTA was like WMATA, but I digress.
I might do a poll on this, but I think these fare increases and "peak of the peak" will backfire, big time. Metro's to the point that one more bad move might be the beginning of the end in the minds of many and frankly I think that if things don't pan out you'll see some massive change for FY 2012 to try to woo riders back (either in the form of better passes and/or simplification).
Ridership went UP after the last "historic" increase. There might be an initial drop but I don't think ridership will actually go down as a result of these increases.
Wayne? Are you suggesting that fares for close in trips from Arlington and DC should be more expensive than they are now, with the idea being that people would shift to the buses? It is an intriguing idea. I still think distance based fares are the way to go, but perhaps the first few miles could be charged at a higher rate and perhaps they could lower some of the outlying fares slightly. I still don't see a flat fare working though from a practical standpoint.
Let's give the three tiered fares a chance before declaring them to be an awful idea. The public might accept them, or at least not be confused by their implementation. Personally, I would rather only see a peak surcharge on trips that start or end at congested stations in the core, or for trips that pass through the core (i.e. Friendship Heights to Grosvenor would not pay a surcharge but Brookland to Grosvenor would), so that reverse commutes or commutes that don't impact the core are encouraged.
Jason, correct me if I'm wrong but weren't you declaring WMATA to be a model system until you moved to the DC area???
Quote from: WMATAGMOAGH on June 01, 2010, 02:19:11 PM
Jason, correct me if I'm wrong but weren't you declaring WMATA to be a model system until you moved to the DC area???
That was before 32+ years of zero maintenance, John Catoe, and the second Great Depression turned Metro into a slow, congested, obscenely expensive cash grab/jobs program that just happens to provide transit. It's like all of Metro's chickens decided to roost at the same time and the fact that Catoe was putting Metrobus at Metrorail's expense was the cue for the Metro collapse.
Now I'd rather have MTA in Baltimore. At least their fare structure is sane and they get love from Annapolis.
Oren,
Although I'm generally against distance based fares on local bus and subway, I do see where it's necessary on other types like commuter rail and so on. I wasn't very specific earlier, but my major issue with WMATA's Metrorail fares is that they start very reasonable (if not outright bargain), but they quickly get incredibly expensive for passengers travelling to/from outlying areas. I can understand if there was either a surcharge at (just throwing out a number), let's beyond a 10 mile radius from downtown DC. That said, with the current fare structure my major issue is that I feel passengers travelling to/from outlying area my pay outrageous fares. I feel that the "pain" should be spread more evenly for all WMATA passengers.
Quote from: WayneNYC on June 02, 2010, 09:40:16 AM
Oren,
Although I'm generally against distance based fares on local bus and subway, I do see where it's necessary on other types like commuter rail and so on. I wasn't very specific earlier, but my major issue with WMATA's Metrorail fares is that they start very reasonable (if not outright bargain), but they quickly get incredibly expensive for passengers travelling to/from outlying areas. I can understand if there was either a surcharge at (just throwing out a number), let's beyond a 10 mile radius from downtown DC. That said, with the current fare structure my major issue is that I feel passengers travelling to/from outlying area my pay outrageous fares. I feel that the "pain" should be spread more evenly for all WMATA passengers.
Wayne,
Thanks for the clarification.
I think your point about how WMATA responded to the survey where riders said they wanted fare increases instead of service cuts, and now they got what they asked for, is a good one. Did they know what they were getting as a result of that request though?
Economics are not my strong point, but is there truly a higher price PER MILE when someone travels 10 miles instead of one? And if so, is it really the amount of difference in the rate WMATA will be charging come July? I could be persuaded easily that the per mile charge should be the same for all riders, and that there is a significant penalty for riders traveling over 7 miles and especially over 10 miles under the current proposal. However, I remain firm in my opposition to flat fares for Metrorail.
I also think (and have said this before) that there needs to be a serious evaluation of the services Metro provides, especially on the bus side, to eliminate services that no one is using and to simplify routings established back when T-Rex rode the system and haven't been updated since.
Quote from: Scrabbleship on June 02, 2010, 09:03:38 AM
Quote from: WMATAGMOAGH on June 01, 2010, 02:19:11 PM
Jason, correct me if I'm wrong but weren't you declaring WMATA to be a model system until you moved to the DC area???
That was before 32+ years of zero maintenance, John Catoe, and the second Great Depression turned Metro into a slow, congested, obscenely expensive cash grab/jobs program that just happens to provide transit. It's like all of Metro's chickens decided to roost at the same time and the fact that Catoe was putting Metrobus at Metrorail's expense was the cue for the Metro collapse.
Now I'd rather have MTA in Baltimore. At least their fare structure is sane and they get love from Annapolis.
So you are proving my point that people bitch and moan about WMATA no matter what. Everyone thought Catoe would be the coming of the Messiah, and then ran him out of town. Same goes for Richard White. People started raising concerns about preventive maintenance in the mid-1990s but no one heeed those calls. Now everyone is looking for someone to blame and/or complaining about what happened. When it comes to talking positively about transit systems, the grass is always greener from the other side of the fence. I have a friend in San Francisco who would love to swap WMATA for BART/MUNI. Take that for what it is worth.
I think regarding Catoe it was a bit of a bait and switch. The attention and improvements Catoe gave Metrobus were sorely needed (though wasting a few million on the LFA styling on 250+ buses seems poor in retrospect), however having everything on the rail end blow up in his face during his time there didn't help. Of course, his battles with the BRU in LA might have helped him with the one-man bow-tied BRU here in DC.
An acquaintance in Boston and I got into a pretty heated debate of WMATA vs. MBTA. When I told him of the massive rate hikes, his response was "you get what you pay for; I'd pay extra for cushioned seats and carpet". Of course, outside the Green Line they don't have the insane congestion delays that WMATA has suffered the last few years, especially post-Fort Totten.