WaPo Editorial on Low Metrobus Fares & WMATA Board Structure

[Scrabbleship]

Given the cut in what areas get maximum fares (the Shady Grove-Medical Center example is not even 10 miles but it's supposed to go maximum fare in peak fare, the current cap is 15 miles in peak), I think Metro is trying to move people to passes by making the cash fare so crippling for anyone to pay.

What's sad is we've passed the point where a Metrobus weekly + a Metrorail weekly cost more than an MBTA monthly. Sadder is once you rip out the carpet and reverse the anti-food/drink attitude, MBTA wipes the floor with WMATA any day. Why do we have such an overpriced, substandard agency that screws long distance commuters over so the short distance people don't whine.

The people paying $1.90 for a peak rail ride while people are paying $5+ for 9 miles in peak should just deal like the people in NYC, Boston, Philly, Chicago, Atlanta, well anywhere. Maybe we should take our lessons from Sacramento ($2.50 base, no transfers)...

[WMATAGMOAGH]

Fares get rounded up to the nearest nickel, so my guess is that is what happens to the Shady Grove-Medical Center fare. 

I still don't get the point in comparing WMATA's prices for passes to the MBTA's.  Passes don't work well on a mileage based system like WMATA's.  Why aren't you up in arms about BART's lack of monthly passes?

Metro did simplify its fare structure, especially for buses, back in the late 1990s.  I already pointed out why the mileage based system is here to stay, like it or not, and you can reread those points again if you want to, I'm not typing out the same argument again.

Considering how much it would cost to operate MARC/VRE train (never mind the deadheading issues I presented), if only enough people to fill one car ride, it isn't going to be worth it.  Build it and they will come often works in transit, but it is debatable if the theory works for a commuter line that is going to only operate a few times a day on a weekend.

WMATA should not be dismantled, unless you want to ensure you can bitch and moan while the replacement is instituted.  WMATA needs some reforms, not a total dismantlement.  Lots of people think the jurisdictional veto on fares is counterproductive, but I don't know if anyone will have the nerve to change it.  Jim Graham might take advantage of it now, but who isn't to say that MD or VA will want it in the future?  Unfortunate, but it is the reality.

The people only paying 1.90 in DC don't live in New York.  Who cares if someone riding a comprable distance in another city pays more? 

WMATA is a quasi-commuter rail and always will be, especially during the peak.  It isn't changing.  As for your personal travel needs, the fare system can't revolve around you or anyone else.  I'm sorry if I come across as insensitive in this regard but you make or made life decisions, and there are consequences that come with making those decisions.  Maybe you can get a pass some weeks if you travel alot.  Maybe some of your friends can meet you halfway to share the burden of fares.  It is public transportation, and therefore has to cater to many people's needs.  Also, it is starved for money, and the realities of the DC area are that we are used to paying based on distance for rail fares.  It has been that way for 33 years and there is really no reason that I can see to change it, just because other cities have flat fares.

We have an agency teetering on being substandard because of a lack of funding.  I don't think people would call it overpriced, most of the public indicated it wanted fare increases to retain current service levels.  No one seriously suggested going to a flat fare during that process.  If anything, as has been discussed elsewhere in this thread, parts of it are UNDERPRICED.  It seems to me as if you are fairly unique in your views.

[WMATAGMOAGH]

Brandon:  You could also set the capped pass you suggest to not count rides that start/end in the same place towards reaching the cap.  Another idea would be to design the Smartrip to cap fares like they do in London where the Oyster card calculates your cheapest fare over time.   For example, if paying as you go would lead to your rides costing more than a monthly travel card, it adjusts what you pay to be equal to the monthly travel card (actually slightly less as an incentive to use Oyster cards). 

[Scrabbleship]

Subchat rant (from someone else) on why weekend MARC service might benefit Baltimore with the influx of DC people who would want to go there

And a blurb from a GGW comment about why everyone's complaints are valid:

Metro's hybrid nature means that you're applying commuter rail-like pricing to what would otherwise be inner-city subway trips.  Alewife to Park Street - about 5.5 miles as the crow flies, 16 minutes by the schedule, $1.70 with a Charlie Card.
Friendship Heights to Metro Center - About 5.9 miles as the crow  flies, 14 minutes by the schedule, currently $2.40 at peak hours. With  latest fare increases and PotP, we're talking $2.45 per trip.
When people complain about other places having a flat fare while DC  does not, to me that merely reflects the fact that urban riders making  short trips end up paying much more than other comparable transit trips  in the US.


Maybe it's time to do a flat fare within the District boundaries and stations right on the line and hose the people from further out...

[WMATAGMOAGH]

Boo hoo.  I'd still rather pay 2.45 to take Metrorail than drive there any day, and no one coming in from Shady Grove should get to make a trip of that length for a comparable amount IMO.

I saw that thread.  The only potentially viable weekend service for MARC is probably the Penn Line.  Even so, see my suggestion for having MDOT just subsidize fares for weekend/evening trips on AMTK between BAL, BWI, NCR, and WAS.

[Tritransit Area]

Hmm...I would think that people coming from Baltimore would want to go to DC, rather than simply the reverse, lol.  Just have trips start and end on the outer branches of the lines.  When the economy picks up and transit has a little bit of money to play with, I'd certainly would hope MARC, and especially VRE, would take a look at trying to serve DC on at least Saturdays, even with a few trips a day.  Ridership can't be that low in general with all of the double deckers they are running.  Even if there was a MetroDirect service (via OmniRide), it would be something.

[Scrabbleship]

Hmm...I would think that people coming from Baltimore would want to go to DC, rather than simply the reverse, lol.  Just have trips start and end on the outer branches of the lines.  When the economy picks up and transit has a little bit of money to play with, I'd certainly would hope MARC, and especially VRE, would take a look at trying to serve DC on at least Saturdays, even with a few trips a day.  Ridership can't be that low in general with all of the double deckers they are running.  Even if there was a MetroDirect service (via OmniRide), it would be something.

Wasn't Metro Direct on Saturdays once proposed, but Prince William County (whose board has overlap with the PRTC board) voted it down due to cost even though it'd bring choice riders to the system (read: DC/Arlington people bound for Potomac Mills) that'd put money in the local economy?

[WMATAGMOAGH]

Hmm...I would think that people coming from Baltimore would want to go to DC, rather than simply the reverse, lol.  Just have trips start and end on the outer branches of the lines.  When the economy picks up and transit has a little bit of money to play with, I'd certainly would hope MARC, and especially VRE, would take a look at trying to serve DC on at least Saturdays, even with a few trips a day.  Ridership can't be that low in general with all of the double deckers they are running.  Even if there was a MetroDirect service (via OmniRide), it would be something.

The initial suggestion somewhere in one of the two threads on the subject was for service to Harpers Ferry.  Those trains spend the night and weekend out west, so the idea of having service starting from DC in the morning is infeasible IMHO.  The Penn Line is a different case, and there would likely be traffic in both directions, and I think a Penn Line train or two might spend the night in DC but I'm not 100% sure, I'd have to glance at the timetable.

[Perry]

I had started drafting a potential weekend schedule for the F/S Metro Direct when I was at PRTC, but we scrapped it when we knew we wouldn't get funding even though it would have been relatively inexpensive.  I was even going to propose that if they couldn't do that to have a FFX Connector route extend to the Woodbridge VRE where it would at least interface with the Woodbridge OmniLink that would go to Potomac Mills.   By the time I was thinking that along with extending the Cross County Connector to Gainesville (had a great routing for it planned too), I packed my bags and moved to Vegas where instead of moving 2 million pax per year, I'm moving 60 million.

[Scrabbleship]

Hmm...I would think that people coming from Baltimore would want to go to DC, rather than simply the reverse, lol.  Just have trips start and end on the outer branches of the lines.  When the economy picks up and transit has a little bit of money to play with, I'd certainly would hope MARC, and especially VRE, would take a look at trying to serve DC on at least Saturdays, even with a few trips a day.  Ridership can't be that low in general with all of the double deckers they are running.  Even if there was a MetroDirect service (via OmniRide), it would be something.

The initial suggestion somewhere in one of the two threads on the subject was for service to Harpers Ferry.  Those trains spend the night and weekend out west, so the idea of having service starting from DC in the morning is infeasible IMHO.  The Penn Line is a different case, and there would likely be traffic in both directions, and I think a Penn Line train or two might spend the night in DC but I'm not 100% sure, I'd have to glance at the timetable.

It was one of several suggestions. I think weekend Penn Line service is sorely needed (ditto the VRE Fredericksburg Line) but I think that the Brunswick Line and the VRE Manassas Line could also support Weekend service as well. As for the trains spending the night out west/south/north, do what the (yes, I'm citing them again) MBTA does on its lines: run one early morning (depart Martinsburg/Baltimore/Manassas/Fredericksburg) train at around 7:00 AM to Union to get people wanting to be in town early. That train becomes the first outbound departure leaving sometime in the 9:00 AM hour. Keep this going and have the last inbound leave sometime around 8:00-9:00 PM and the last outbound leave around 10:30-11:00 or so. Trains still spend the night in their yard, everyone wins...even the kicking and screaming CSX. Besides, there always seem to be assorted MARC cars hanging around Union on the weekends, why not put them to good use?

The only thing keeping weekend MARC/VRE service from happening is the short-sightedness in Annapolis/Richmond and their use of Moco & PG/NoVA as an ATM so the Chestertowns and Cape Charleses can get their money.

[Scrabbleship]

Metro did simplify its fare structure, especially for buses, back in the late 1990s.  I already pointed out why the mileage based system is here to stay, like it or not, and you can reread those points again if you want to, I'm not typing out the same argument again.

Having three different fare levels when I can't think of another agency that has two isn't simplification. Even BART doesn't have time-of-day fares level and has most of San Francisco in one zone. Why can't that work with Metro and why do we have to do peaks and peaks-of-peaks and have peaks be a bit too long in span (I'd think 6:00-9:00 and 3:30-6:30 would make a lot more sense for peak fares). There has to be a happy medium somewhere to placate everyone.

WMATA should not be dismantled, unless you want to ensure you can bitch and moan while the replacement is instituted.  WMATA needs some reforms, not a total dismantlement.

Like New York State government, I think WMATA in its current state is beyond any state of reform. I think there has been too much of the same for anyone to want change and it'll make the problem only worse and worse until it has to be blown up. What reforms would you do without being able to expel board members or bust ATU 689? Is such a thing even humanly possible?

We have an agency teetering on being substandard because of a lack of funding.  I don't think people would call it overpriced, most of the public indicated it wanted fare increases to retain current service levels.

But did they want increases so steep and high? These increases are going to only drive commuters back to their cars and defeat the purpose of Metro. Metro's backed itself into a corner with things such as the food policy (not that I condone it but if the CTA can ban food and drink and yet have food vendors steps from fare control, so can Metro) and the fare system that it can't think outside the box to save itself. Besides, Metro could close at least a half-dozen stations during off-peak hours and save money that way but they'd never have the daring to do it.

If anything, as has been discussed elsewhere in this thread, parts of it are UNDERPRICED.  It seems to me as if you are fairly unique in your views.

On this board, yes. In general, no. I think there's a major difference between people who have lived here their whole lives and those who have come from elsewhere who have a something else to compare it to.

[WayneNYC]

If anything, as has been discussed elsewhere in this thread, parts of it are UNDERPRICED.  It seems to me as if you are fairly unique in your views.

On this board, yes. In general, no. I think there's a major difference between people who have lived here their whole lives and those who have come from elsewhere who have a something else to compare it to.

No Jason, you're not at all alone.  In regards to Metrorail's fares, I'm in total agreement with you.  I think Oren is correct in that they'll probably retain distance based fares, which in my opinion is very unfortunate.

I think Metrorail fares are simply insane.  A legal form of highway roberry, price gouging etc.   They're very unfair to those outside of the city limits and I totally understand why people choose to stay in their cars.  I did see on the news where more people favored fare increases over service cuts.  First, I'd wonder how many of those people have experienced transit systems in other major US cities, and also how many were federal employees who probably wouldn't care as they get heavily subsidized MetroCheks.

I'm all for a flat fare for Metrorail and I think your earlier examples were right on-point.  If Metrorail had flat fares of let's say $2.50 or so, people (especially those in DC) would probably re-think their travel options, especially with Metrobus being so cheap.  I realize to try to compare transit systems is almost always like comparing apples and oranges.  However, looking at MARTA, NYCTA, MBTA, CTA, SFMTA, SEPTA, I refuse to believe that Metrorail fares are even remotely close to being fair.  I feel for WMATA because it doesn't have a dedicated funding source, but I think Metrorail riders outside of the District are being bent over for every ride.

I've never wished anything bad on WMATA and I still won't, but I totally understand why more people are driving and I fully expect more to get back in their cars with the next fare increase.

[Scrabbleship]

I think of how MARTA doesn't have dedicated funding either plus has to deal with assorted battles (Atlanta v. rest of Georgia) and quite outdated stereotypes (often pertaining to race and/or crime) and I wonder why they're not hurting for cash a la WMATA. Of course, all the people from Atlanta wish MARTA was like WMATA, but I digress.

I might do a poll on this, but I think these fare increases and "peak of the peak" will backfire, big time. Metro's to the point that one more bad move might be the beginning of the end in the minds of many and frankly I think that if things don't pan out you'll see some massive change for FY 2012 to try to woo riders back (either in the form of better passes and/or simplification).

[WMATAGMOAGH]

Ridership went UP after the last "historic" increase.  There might be an initial drop but I don't think ridership will actually go down as a result of these increases.

Wayne?  Are you suggesting that fares for close in trips from Arlington and DC should be more expensive than they are now, with the idea being that people would shift to the buses?  It is an intriguing idea.  I still think distance based fares are the way to go, but perhaps the first few miles could be charged at a higher rate and perhaps they could lower some of the outlying fares slightly.  I still don't see a flat fare working though from a practical standpoint.

Let's give the three tiered fares a chance before declaring them to be an awful idea.  The public might accept them, or at least not be confused by their implementation.  Personally, I would rather only see a peak surcharge on trips that start or end at congested stations in the core, or for trips that pass through the core (i.e. Friendship Heights to Grosvenor would not pay a surcharge but Brookland to Grosvenor would), so that reverse commutes or commutes that don't impact the core are encouraged.

Jason, correct me if I'm wrong but weren't you declaring WMATA to be a model system until you moved to the DC area???

[Scrabbleship]

Jason, correct me if I'm wrong but weren't you declaring WMATA to be a model system until you moved to the DC area???

That was before 32+ years of zero maintenance, John Catoe, and the second Great Depression turned Metro into a slow, congested, obscenely expensive cash grab/jobs program that just happens to provide transit. It's like all of Metro's chickens decided to roost at the same time and the fact that Catoe was putting Metrobus at Metrorail's expense was the cue for the Metro collapse.

Now I'd rather have MTA in Baltimore. At least their fare structure is sane and they get love from Annapolis.