CTA bus problems

[Ave B and E Bway]

CHICAGO - Six weeks after they were removed from service, 200 extra-long CTA buses remain parked. When -- or even if -- they will run again remains an open question. CTA spokesperson Noelle Gaffney said the agency awaits the report of a consultant brought in to determine if repairs can be made to the buses, manufactured between 2003 and 2005 by North American Bus Industries (NABI). The buses have had a troubled run at the CTA.  Agency officials quickly became disenchanted with their riding characteristics and durability.  In 2005, the agency stopped paying NABI for the buses because of the recurring problems, and an inability to come up with solutions.  CTA has since sued NABI, and CTA officials have stated publicly that they will not purchases buses from NABI again. Other transit agencies have had similar complaints. CTA abruptly withdrew the 60-foot-long, articulated buses from service when a Feb. 23 inspection of one NABI bus, with only 157,000 miles on its odometer, showed cracks in its axles and its articulation joints -- the accordion area. The agency shuffled its bus assignments citywide and even juggled its 'L' service during rush hours to try to accommodate riders.  Gaffney said that continues, with a bit of help. "We have other bus orders in place and have been receiving other buses," Gaffney said. "So since that date we have added an additional 65 buses to the fleet. We've been able week by week to improve (schedules and capacity)." CTA's newest buses are being built by a different manufacturer, New Flyer.  A lease order for 150 buses is being filled, and money from the federal stimulus and state infrastructure programs will be used to acquire at least 180 additional buses. Gaffney would not speculate as to whether CTA would opt to junk the 200 buses, even though they remain under warranty and are nowhere near the 12-year standard for bus replacement advised by the Federal Transit Administration (FTA).  She said that decision would be made by CTA officials, working with the consultant. [/t]

[MetroLinerXLZ]

If anything, perhaps the CTA should take a look into their own maintenence practices.

If they had RTS's and Flxibles breaking down, I don't think a lawsuit is what should be looked into...

[Perry]

Believe me, NABI makes crap, it isn't the maintenance of the agency.  We are having so many problems with the newest NABI hybrids and diesels we received in Vegas.  Alternators are failing, there have been engine fires, it's ridiculous.  We finally got their attention and they're supposed to be looking into the problem.

[mrpete]

NABI has issued a voluntary recall to inspect and repair all artics built before Sept. 30, 2007.

Here is the press release: http://www.nabiusa.com/news/NABI%20Recall%20Release%20Final%20_2_.pdf

[mrpete]

Perry:

If you know, what's been LACMTA's experience with NABI since they've bought nothing but NABI's since forever?

LA is taking delivery of 500 of NABI's 42 foot BRT model as well as the CompoBus. In fact they've exercised an option for an additional 100 Compo's plus a new order for 50 32 footers.

[Perry]

Pete, you know, I'm not sure.  It is true that they've been buying tons of them, same with Foothill.  Our 1999 models aren't bad, it's this new crop that is horrible.  If it hadn't been for the CTA problem I would have said they were just rushing ours off the line to get the NJT order through.

We were actually contemplating the CompoBus, but I don't think we're going to buy from NABI again either.  New Flyers are just such a better product.  Our new CNG's came in and I've heard very little about them.  You still get odds and ends of things, but not to this degree.

[mrpete]

A possible issue may be that since all manufacturers use the same components from the same vendors, how and where they are mounted in the body may be the problem. You may recall when Eagle was around that its coaches were notoriously unreliable, in part due to the cat's cradle of drive belts and pulleys used to operate the engine accessories and the AC compressor. The individual components were OK but how Eagle mounted them was not. But with NABI, one would think that with what is still a relatively old design these problems shouldn't be happening.

On the other hand a few years ago several TA's had a rash of failures and fires all from the same brand of alternators.

And don't forget the rash of railcar wheel and axle failures of recent years regardless of who built the trains. Germany's ICE high speed train fleet has been sidelined for several months with this issue.

But there may be something to your theory of NABI rushing off small orders to free up assembly line space for the big buck NJT and LACMTA orders.

[Perry]

When the buses first arrived, there was an array of wiring problems and it seemed like it took forever for the first ones to hit the street.  Our maintenance department wanted to down the whole series of them, which was 57 coaches, but there would be no way to operate service.  Since it was so sporadic, it was felt to run the ones that were 'ok' and then hopefully NABI would respond.  They had been giving us the runaround until RTC sent them a fairly threatening letter signed by our Legal Counsel then magically they began to respond to our issues. 

But you may be right that it isn't necessarily how they're built but more the manufacturer of the parts.  Hopefully this can end well so at least these vehicles can hold up.  I guess the good thing is, our average annual mileage per vehicle is over 60,000 so we'll be able to retire them before the 12 year mark since they'll have reached the 500,000 plateau sooner.

I believe we'll be going out to bid within the next year for new artics and I have a hunch they won't be from NABI. 

It will be interesting to see how the NJT units hold up.

[Tritransit Area]

So the 1999 NABI 40-LFWs are holding up well, as are the current artics (seemed fine when I rode one, but of course my experience is limited).

Did NABI drop in manufacturing quality (again), or is it just that they are getting more business than they were in the mid 90's.  Regardless, it's a shame that they are building buses that can't run without severe problems.

Which reminds me - I wonder how DART First State's NABIs are doing....

[Perry]

From what I understand, the 1999's had their share of issues, but I guess it was nothing too major that couldn't be fixed.  The artics are doing great and at least 20 are going out to be completely overhauled by Complete Coach Works. 

This latest batch has been awful.  I think they have bitten off more than they can chew and it's coming back to bite them.

[mrpete]

More troubling details:

http://www.masstransitmag.com/publication/article.jsp?siteSection=3&id=8514&pageNum=1

Component issues are one thing but frames and chassis's are basic engineering problems that IMO are inexcusable! Apparently not specing the right steel, poor welds and welding inspection, plus the apparent fact that prototype stress testing revealed serious problems point to management issues from the shop floor on up the command chain.

[metroman177]

  Doggone....do I smell an end to NABI? Did this similiar situation happen to the Grumman 870, back in the late 70s early 80s.   Oh well we'll have to wait and see ....as it continues

[mrpete]

Flxible learned from the 870 debacle and went on to thrive for 15 years more. Neoplan didn't learn from it's issues and is no longer around, at least in the US. Orion is still learning.

Right now whether or not NABI learns and gets it's act together may not matter in the short term since it has become the defacto sole source vendor for SoCal TA's. CTA is a major SNAFU that could become FUBAR if NABI does not respond appropriately. They can still recover and do well but time is short and memories in the industry are long.

[mrpete]

The almost "Last Word"??

http://www.chicagobus.org/news/nabi-retirement

[Perry]

I've heard today that with our buses, the paint is coming off as well.  It's not just chipping, it's coming off in big pieces.  These buses are less than a year old.....