Favorite WMATA New Flyer Buses

[79MetroExtraMD]

Most of the manufacturers now want to add some aesthetics and appeal to their models. The whole Euro-style thing. I mean I like the LFA from a photographic point of view. The buses ride fine but I have to sort of agree on the whole 2 feet of dead space thing. I can understand if the rear needs to be extended because of powertrain configuration but that extra ~2 feet in the front creates an overhang. The Xcelsior looks more appealing since it has an overall reduction in vehicle weight, has improved safety features, and overall reduction in fuel consumption whilst being aesthetically appealing.

[LandoverDivision]

Well said Wes.  To you guys who seem to think the LFAs is money well spent.  I think it's a waste vs. buying a perfectly good LF/LFR.  The extra 2 feet on the LFAs is simply unused (wasted space).  So you have this bus with 2 extra feet of mass and it can't accomodate any extra passengers over a standard LF/LFR.  It's more mass, which cost more money with zero benefit.  I can't tell you guys what to think, but I'm very interested in hearing why you think this bus is not a waste of money.  Remember... They got these buses because Catoe doesn't like square buses.  This is all about styling and not functionality.  I'd say it's very much a waste of money and unnecessary use of materials. 

Why keep buying LFRs and LFs? It's stupid. It's like Ride Ons repeated Gillig order. Noone wants to keep seeing the same bus over, and over, and over again. It's good to see something new here jeez you guys take this busfanning stuff way too seriously.

You just don't get it.  As much as I would like to see a variety of buses, it makes fiscal sense to purchase the same bus.  It saves money in terms of parts, drivers and mechanics get used to driving and repairing the same type of bus, so future problems can be fixed easier and buses can stay on the road longer and out of the repair shop less.

T/As don't buy a bus because we want them to buy it, they buy it because it makes so many things in their operations easier and the passengers don't give a rat's patute about what's coming as long as it comes to their stop on time, gets them to where they want to go and gets them to where they want to go on time.

And they would also like to buy a bus that saves gas and money each year. And the LFAs being hybrids, that saves money and gas. About some billlion gallons each year maybe? If a bus looks good and saves money and gas, then WMATA (along with other transit companies) are going to buy no matter how much people like or don't like them. Believe me I understand where you, Tristan, and Wayne are coming from but it's WMATA's choice not ours.

[Tristan]

Alright but an LFR hybrid would save MORE fuel and cost LESS...so that doesn't make it a good idea.

[LandoverDivision]

Well said Wes.  To you guys who seem to think the LFAs is money well spent.  I think it's a waste vs. buying a perfectly good LF/LFR.  The extra 2 feet on the LFAs is simply unused (wasted space).  So you have this bus with 2 extra feet of mass and it can't accomodate any extra passengers over a standard LF/LFR.  It's more mass, which cost more money with zero benefit.  I can't tell you guys what to think, but I'm very interested in hearing why you think this bus is not a waste of money.  Remember... They got these buses because Catoe doesn't like square buses.  This is all about styling and not functionality.  I'd say it's very much a waste of money and unnecessary use of materials. 

Why keep buying LFRs and LFs? It's stupid. It's like Ride Ons repeated Gillig order. Noone wants to keep seeing the same bus over, and over, and over again. It's good to see something new here jeez you guys take this busfanning stuff way too seriously.

You last sentence is very interesting.  It's more like you're take it too seriously.  We all like to see diverse fleets and so on but, that's purely from a bus fan's perspective.  We know that realistically it's better for an agency to find a workable formula and stick with it.  I can't prove it but, I'd bet that very little attention/consideration is given to styling and/or diversity just for the sake of having a diverse fleet.  In regards to WMATA (or any transit agency), you have to remember their mission.  Not to mention while we have our favorites and so on, the average Joe and Jane has no care about the styling of the bus and if the fleet is diverse or not.

Yeah I guess. But like I said before it's WMATA money to waste or whatever. Not our choice. If they want to buy LFAs, Xcelsiors or whatever, let it be. We have no control or sayso of how and why WMATA does their business.

[Scrabbleship]

Is it really wasted space? I know that the 40LFR's are actually closer to 41' because of the engine size and all. If the LFA's are using the same engine as the LFR's, is it really that wasted of space?

[WayneNYC]

Is it really wasted space? I know that the 40LFR's are actually closer to 41' because of the engine size and all. If the LFA's are using the same engine as the LFR's, is it really that wasted of space?

It's pretty much that extra space in the front of the bus.  The reason we call it wasted space is because it's not at all funtional.  It simply increases the bus' overall footprint.

Well said Wes.  To you guys who seem to think the LFAs is money well spent.  I think it's a waste vs. buying a perfectly good LF/LFR.  The extra 2 feet on the LFAs is simply unused (wasted space).  So you have this bus with 2 extra feet of mass and it can't accomodate any extra passengers over a standard LF/LFR.  It's more mass, which cost more money with zero benefit.  I can't tell you guys what to think, but I'm very interested in hearing why you think this bus is not a waste of money.  Remember... They got these buses because Catoe doesn't like square buses.  This is all about styling and not functionality.  I'd say it's very much a waste of money and unnecessary use of materials. 

Why keep buying LFRs and LFs? It's stupid. It's like Ride Ons repeated Gillig order. Noone wants to keep seeing the same bus over, and over, and over again. It's good to see something new here jeez you guys take this busfanning stuff way too seriously.

You last sentence is very interesting.  It's more like you're take it too seriously.  We all like to see diverse fleets and so on but, that's purely from a bus fan's perspective.  We know that realistically it's better for an agency to find a workable formula and stick with it.  I can't prove it but, I'd bet that very little attention/consideration is given to styling and/or diversity just for the sake of having a diverse fleet.  In regards to WMATA (or any transit agency), you have to remember their mission.  Not to mention while we have our favorites and so on, the average Joe and Jane has no care about the styling of the bus and if the fleet is diverse or not.

Yeah I guess. But like I said before it's WMATA money to waste or whatever. Not our choice. If they want to buy LFAs, Xcelsiors or whatever, let it be. We have no control or sayso of how and why WMATA does their business.

I never said nor did I imply that we had any control over this.  My statement has been that (1) The LFA design's increased mass is non-functional space, (2) It's a waste of money and resources that's here only because the top guy likes "buses with curves" and (3) the average transit rider does not care if all of the buses are the same or not. 

[Annex4421]

I agree with WES on terms of WMATA ordering the same model bus because it would save money on repairs
BUT. I have to go with Brandon on terms WMATA wanting different style of buses and the DE42LFA along with NABI 5400s. Are kicking off a new era the BRT era. Yes They could be problems. Yes WMATA should've kept the LF/LFR thing going but who knows. WMATA gets what they like and no matter what Bus Company (New Flyer, Orion, etc.) If it performs good they'll get it. Example ALL of WMATA Flexibles from the New Look to the Metro E's Look how long that era took though they did take a break with the MANs, Gillig's and the RTS. Trust me not only will the LFA era eventually come to an end the New Flyer era as well because who knows what tomorrow will bring? This is probably a fad that'll die in a year or 2.

[WES]

The point on whether ordering different types buses has two valid points.  First off the best reason to have a non-diverse fleet is what I have stated above, parts and repairs saving money and keeping buses on the road instead of off.

The only reason to have a diverse fleet is one word.........Flxible.  When they went out of business, T/As who were mainly Flixble customers had to scramble to find other suppliers, including WMATA, MDMTA and others.  Dealing with at least two to three manufacturers is probably best, probably best to keep one manufacturer to a few garages, to keep parts from floating around everywhere.  I thought that was what WMATA was doing when the Orion VII CNGs/DE40LFs/DE41LFRs/D41LFRs came in.  It looked like the Ds were going to be split between Landover  and Montgomery, the Metro Es between Annex and Arlington, the Orion VIs between Landover, Montgomery and Western and the 2100s between Northern, Southeastern and Western.  Granted other events have happened, the closing of Southeastern, the opening of West Ox, but WMATA could have worked this out to where that situation could have still worked out and the constant bus garage switching wouldn't have happened.

To end this point, I didn't say I hated them, I don't feel the LFA design, it's wasted, if that bus had LFR features it still would ride the same.  I will ride them, I will take pictures of them, I just don't like the design.  I still feel that the DE40LF are the fastest accelerating buses out there.

[LandoverDivision]

  I still feel that the DE40LF are the fastest accelerating buses out there.

Aren't the Orion VIs faster? I don't know. I don't like how the top of the LFA messes up the back a little. Other than that, pretty amazing buses.

[WayneNYC]

  I still feel that the DE40LF are the fastest accelerating buses out there.

Aren't the Orion VIs faster? I don't know. I don't like how the top of the LFA messes up the back a little. Other than that, pretty amazing buses.

The Orion VIs are indeed quick as heck but, I'm sure the DE40LF/Rs are now the quickest accelerating bus in WMATA's fleet.  That's one of the reason I like WMATA's Orion VI as they can really haul *ss.  That said, I remember when the DE40LFs first arrived.  I was totally in awe at their incredible acceleration.

[Tristan]

Yeah I guess. But like I said before it's WMATA money to waste or whatever. Not our choice. If they want to buy LFAs, Xcelsiors or whatever, let it be. We have no control or sayso of how and why WMATA does their business.

Do you realize that the ONLY money Metro has that didn't come from YOUR POCKET is ad revenue???  And that indirectly came from you financing the stations that carry the ads.  Sidenote really.

[LandoverDivision]

  I still feel that the DE40LF are the fastest accelerating buses out there.

Aren't the Orion VIs faster? I don't know. I don't like how the top of the LFA messes up the back a little. Other than that, pretty amazing buses.

The Orion VIs are indeed quick as heck but, I'm sure the DE40LF/Rs are now the quickest accelerating bus in WMATA's fleet.  That's one of the reason I like WMATA's Orion VI as they can really haul *ss.  That said, I remember when the DE40LFs first arrived.  I was totally in awe at their incredible acceleration.

Agreed. it's like that with all hybrids. The LFAs can go pretty fast for their weight.

[Annex4421]

Alright but an LFR hybrid would save MORE fuel and cost LESS...so that doesn't make it a good idea.

It is a good idea but WMATA is in the BRT bus fad now.

[LandoverDivision]

Do you realize that the ONLY money Metro has that didn't come from YOUR POCKET is ad revenue???  And that indirectly came from you financing the stations that carry the ads.  Sidenote really.

Like the government doesn't rip hardworking people out of their money anyway. It's an everyday thing. As long as I get to where I need to go safe and sound, hey I ain't got no problems with it.

[Tritransit Area]

  I still feel that the DE40LF are the fastest accelerating buses out there.

Aren't the Orion VIs faster? I don't know. I don't like how the top of the LFA messes up the back a little. Other than that, pretty amazing buses.

The Orion VIs are indeed quick as heck but, I'm sure the DE40LF/Rs are now the quickest accelerating bus in WMATA's fleet.  That's one of the reason I like WMATA's Orion VI as they can really haul *ss.  That said, I remember when the DE40LFs first arrived.  I was totally in awe at their incredible acceleration.

Agreed. it's like that with all hybrids. The LFAs can go pretty fast for their weight.

Not necessarily.  SEPTA's newest hybrids were slower than their diesel counterparts (some still are).  Thankfully they are being upgraded so that they are tolerably comparable in speed.

I always thought the Orion Vs were wicked fast as well.  They do a good job on the K6, the route with killer hills.