WMATA orders Orion VII NG's?

[aznboy4305]

Uhh since when did Orion discontinue the Orion VII?

Discontinued production in 2007. The Orion VII NG is still in production though. The only Orion bus still in production. It's a shame but it is what it is.

Um, no...its not what it is...just because they gave it a face lift and threw two letters onto the name for marketing purposes doesn't mean they "discontinued" the model, you can't spell "Orion VII NG" without "Orion VII" can you??

[LandoverDivision]

Uhh since when did Orion discontinue the Orion VII?

Discontinued production in 2007. The Orion VII NG is still in production though. The only Orion bus still in production. It's a shame but it is what it is.

.....its the exact same bus............

Think of the NG as the restyled Orion VII.

[aznboy4305]

Uhh since when did Orion discontinue the Orion VII?

Discontinued production in 2007. The Orion VII NG is still in production though. The only Orion bus still in production. It's a shame but it is what it is.

.....its the exact same bus............

Think of the NG as the restyled Orion VII.

Well yes it is but it doesn't mean the "Orion VII is discontinued". When an Escalade or an Accord gets a minor face lift (such as a new grille or taillights), that generation model isn't "discontinued".

[Tritransit Area]

Yea Alexandria DASH does not have an order for Orions of any kind as far as I know.  At our last discussion, we hadn't even decided how many 40-foot buses we'd try to squeeze into this order, so naming the manufacturer is a bit premature (most likely Gillig though).

Wow, you guys are upgrading to 40 footers as well?  Also, did y'all ever finish that new garage you were building?

[daimlerbuses]

Orion needs to step their game up hopefully the NG's bring back good relationships

Daimler Buses North America and New York MTA destroyed the Orion name and its reputation.

Ever considered how beneficial MTA has been to Orion over the years?

Yes, but I think it's somewhat debatable.  MTA has purchased a lot of Orions, particularly the Orion VII, but then they clogged up production lines and who could forget the wonderful "shaker table" test that humiliated Orion?

In a way, I think that Orion (and Daimler) became so comfortable with the mega MTA contracts that they started to forget about the little/medium guys like our very own Ride-On and DASH that supported them for decades, and gave them crappy buses.  Now DASH and Ride-On are disgusted by the Orion brand name - a name that once stood for quality, reliability, and trust.

You know, once upon a time, Orion was a major contendor for Gillig among smaller agencies.  Now, Gillig just about has it all, with the exception of CNG orders.

Speaking of Ride On's latest batch of Orion VIIs, I don't think they are running well to this day!  Although it was a year or so ago, I rode a few of the ZFs.  The awful lurching and poor performance is uncharacteristic of a bus with a ZF.

It's too bad, really.  The Orion VII was the downfall of Orion...

I woudn't say that, there are many small customers that are perfectly happy with Orion these days. Keep in mind Ride-On got some of the early Orion VII's (around 2003 and 2004). Every bus has problems in it's first few years of production, the Orion VII being no different.

As for DASH...I don't know what to say about that statement because they have an order for 10 Orion VII's for 2010 delivery. Hmm...

I highly doubt Orion would "just care about MTA" because they do have to consider if they did, then what would happen should MTA just decide to award a contract to someone else...

Actually do you have the proof to say that DASH is ordering from Orion, I need  the source saying that this is so.  I have heard, from a reliable source who works for DASH that DASH is still considering who they are ordering from.

I have an uncle who works in the tenders and bids departments at Orion in Mississauga who said that they would be getting the next DASH order by way of letter of interest. For those of you wondering what that is, it's something a lot of agencies do to get a favorable slot in the manufacturer's production line. The agency sends out a tender asking for bids, then signs a letter of interest to a specific company (eg NFI) saying they intend to accept the successful tender, and the manufacturer can begin production. Ever wonder why some orders you see out there seem to arrive so quick? This is why.

I'd be more than happy to email my uncle and forward you the response, if we really have to go to that stage...

Although do note that that information is 2 months old, so things could have changed by now...

One thing guys...Here's my main point in this debate: While some of you have made valid points and proof to back up about the VII fiasco, etc. You cannot just assume because a company stops buying the product means that the company is dissatisfied as a whole with the product or manufacturer (in this case Orion). There are many factors that come into play (eg. specifications, delivery time, etc.) and you can try and think that you know by simply asking someone like a mechanic or even a few of them, but they are only one of many people involved, and you just can't please everyone.

And no, I am not Orion biased. I approach everything openly, if I have to stick up for/criticize Orion, NABI, NFI, Nova, Gillig, etc. then I will.

[daimlerbuses]

Uhh since when did Orion discontinue the Orion VII?

Discontinued production in 2007. The Orion VII NG is still in production though. The only Orion bus still in production. It's a shame but it is what it is.

Um, no...its not what it is...just because they gave it a face lift and threw two letters onto the name for marketing purposes doesn't mean they "discontinued" the model, you can't spell "Orion VII NG" without "Orion VII" can you??

I repeat again, the Orion VII NG is the exact same as the Orion VII...only differences are extra molding stuck onto the ends and seamless, bonded in windows...Delete those items and I present you a 2009 Orion VII.

[aznboy4305]

Thank you, it really is amazing how some people can get fooled by some extracurricular plastic...

Orion VII NG - Plastic = Orion VII

Gillig BRT - Plastic = Gillig Advantage

NABI 60BRT - Plastic = NABI 60LFW

New Flyer DE42LFA - Plastic = New Flyer D40LF

[OrionFlyer]

What exactly were the problems with WMATA's Orion VII's? I'm interested.

[Tristan]

As for DASH...I don't know what to say about that statement because they have an order for 10 Orion VII's for 2010 delivery. Hmm...

We (I'm employed by DASH, if you're wondering about my source) might have opened slots for a potential order but it is false to claim that the order is a done deal.  If we get hybrids, which is very likely due to Stimulus money that would pay the difference in cost between diesels and hybrids, it's highly likely that we would go with Gillig because they use the Allison package, and our mechanics are already familiar with Allison equipment.  That's something very important to us -- we take the Southwest Airlines approach to fleet standardization. 

An aside:
You don't have to post a letter from your uncle or whatnot but we have a rule against unsubstantiated claims here unless they're placed in a topic we have called "The Grapevine" - which is where rumor mill material should be posted.  So, if there's any backlash against your claim, it's because it is purported as fact with no verifiable source.  We don't like that because we don't want to preserve lies/misinformation along with the historical information we're trying to string together.

Not saying that you're lying or anything, we just have no way of knowing...it's sort of like the rules on Wikipedia.

[Scrabbleship]

Thank you, it really is amazing how some people can get fooled by some extracurricular plastic...

Orion VII NG - Plastic = Orion VII

Gillig BRT - Plastic = Gillig Advantage

NABI 60BRT - Plastic = NABI 60LFW

New Flyer DE42LFA - Plastic = New Flyer D40LF

Wouldn't a D40LFR - Plastic = D40LF too?

As for the 60BRT vs. 60LFW, if it's merely just plastic why then is the 60BRT a success whereas the only 60LFW's were retired after only 6 years in service. It has to be more than the fact that it's the only CNG artic in production, yes?

[aznboy4305]

Wouldn't a D40LFR - Plastic = D40LF too?

Yep

As for the 60BRT vs. 60LFW, if it's merely just plastic why then is the 60BRT a success whereas the only 60LFW's were retired after only 6 years in service. It has to be more than the fact that it's the only CNG artic in production, yes?

Because the 60BRT hasn't existed for 6 years yet. From what I've seen, I wouldn't be surprised if the 60BRT gets retired prematurely also.

[Scrabbleship]

Wouldn't a D40LFR - Plastic = D40LF too?

Yep

As for the 60BRT vs. 60LFW, if it's merely just plastic why then is the 60BRT a success whereas the only 60LFW's were retired after only 6 years in service. It has to be more than the fact that it's the only CNG artic in production, yes?

Because the 60BRT hasn't existed for 6 years yet. From what I've seen, I wouldn't be surprised if the 60BRT gets retired prematurely also.

There goes running them on the X2...

[daimlerbuses]

As for DASH...I don't know what to say about that statement because they have an order for 10 Orion VII's for 2010 delivery. Hmm...

We (I'm employed by DASH, if you're wondering about my source) might have opened slots for a potential order but it is false to claim that the order is a done deal.  If we get hybrids, which is very likely due to Stimulus money that would pay the difference in cost between diesels and hybrids, it's highly likely that we would go with Gillig because they use the Allison package, and our mechanics are already familiar with Allison equipment.  That's something very important to us -- we take the Southwest Airlines approach to fleet standardization. 

An aside:
You don't have to post a letter from your uncle or whatnot but we have a rule against unsubstantiated claims here unless they're placed in a topic we have called "The Grapevine" - which is where rumor mill material should be posted.  So, if there's any backlash against your claim, it's because it is purported as fact with no verifiable source.  We don't like that because we don't want to preserve lies/misinformation along with the historical information we're trying to string together.

Not saying that you're lying or anything, we just have no way of knowing...it's sort of like the rules on Wikipedia.

It's ok, there are so many people working within the transit industry that it is almost impossible in a lot of scenarios to get a straight answer, as it can depend on whom you talk to.

As for that comment about production slots - true, but once that letter of interest is signed (as it has been, according to uncle) that means the parties have agreed to such and such (DASH and Orion) although I'm sure there could be a section about canceling the order in there...

And I'm not trying to make false or unsupported claims here, but if others see so then I guess I should post in that rumor mill section next time...

And Final point, I believe I said your VII's would be diesel..so I don't know where the hybrid aspect came out of this...did I say hybrid by accident?

PS. How you guys liking those Orion V's?

[Annex4421]

As for DASH...I don't know what to say about that statement because they have an order for 10 Orion VII's for 2010 delivery. Hmm...

We (I'm employed by DASH, if you're wondering about my source) might have opened slots for a potential order but it is false to claim that the order is a done deal.  If we get hybrids, which is very likely due to Stimulus money that would pay the difference in cost between diesels and hybrids, it's highly likely that we would go with Gillig because they use the Allison package, and our mechanics are already familiar with Allison equipment.  That's something very important to us -- we take the Southwest Airlines approach to fleet standardization. 

An aside:
You don't have to post a letter from your uncle or whatnot but we have a rule against unsubstantiated claims here unless they're placed in a topic we have called "The Grapevine" - which is where rumor mill material should be posted.  So, if there's any backlash against your claim, it's because it is purported as fact with no verifiable source.  We don't like that because we don't want to preserve lies/misinformation along with the historical information we're trying to string together.

Not saying that you're lying or anything, we just have no way of knowing...it's sort of like the rules on Wikipedia.

I wouldn't mind if DASH gets Gilligs they would look good for DASH.

[Tristan]

Actually we were originally quite pissed with the last Orion Vs because they were some of the first buses off the line after the strike and each unit had it's own problems...mostly resolved to this point.

In regards to hybrids, we received the aforementioned grant to upgrade to hybrids, so there's no reason for us not to go that route.