Transit Photography and Homeland Security

[ECBuzz]

Hi!  I'd just like to raise a few questions pertaing the relationship of transit photography and homeland security:

1. Is taking pictures inside transit terminals constitute trespassing as forbidden in most transit terminals in this post 9/11 world, as I have been questioned by either bus operators, security guards or police officers while taking pictures at the transit terminals in Clearwater, Lakeland, Orlando, Tampa  and Tallahassee (All in Florida) and the South Strip Terminal in Las Vegas?

2. Do you usually write to TA's for permission to take pictures of buses insidet transit terminals?

3. Is taking picture of buses inside terminals while standing at public streets also against the law and make one liable to questioning, as I have experienced in Lakeland?

4. Why certain TA's, bus operastors and security personnel regard transit photography as a threat to homeland security?

5. Why I was seldom subjected to such questioning while doing similar things in the greater DC area except by a couple of Prince George County The Bus operators?

Thanks.

[79MetroExtraMD]

Around here, the only place we know we cannot take pictures or videos is at the Pentagon Transit Terminal because its on DoD government property as well as Metro bus garages which is private property. I haven't been confronted by anyone because of me taking pictures (even in the presence of Metro Transit Police). I have had a couple of operators tell me I couldn't (and these were contracted operators in Virginia). During the Lunchtalk chats, a couple people asked Catoe about the photography situation post 9/11. The only time you need a permit is with commercial photography. Amateur photography is permitted.

This same issue was brought up a couple times in NYC with instituing a ban on photography due to "security risks". Many folks were generally opposed to the ban sighting that they were being labeled as "suspicious characters" and that they posed a threat to operations. The ACLU even joined in by saying that the ban would violate their first Amendment rights. So, the ban didn't come to fruition (twice). I heard Boston, Chicago, and a few other places were trying to draft up some kind of policy about photography. I know NJT used to have a policy a few years back, but since repealed it.

This issue comes up quite alot because alot of people are generally ignorant of policy or state word-of-mouth policies that have no kind of backing. I would generally ask the TA if they have some kind of policy regarding photography and if they can provide some concrete documentation as to what their policy is. That would reduce the chance of a heated confrontation. There was one time where I almost had to curse an operator out because she told me I had to work for Arlington County in order to take pictures of buses. The irony is that she didn't even work for the County, but for a contractor that contracted the service to Arlington (Veolia prior to July 1st.)

The best thing to do is to carry around the Photographer's Rights document. I forget the link, but it's not that hard to find. Plus, just ask around about a policy and if you can get it in print form.

[Perry]

Not knowing how they would be in Albuquerque when I wanted to take pictures of their Rapid Ride buses, I just walked up to the operator at the transit center and asked him if it was ok.  I'm not that desperate for shots that I'd put myself at risk for even putting up for any hassle whether it was a "right" or not, and he was really cool.  Sometimes just asking someone gets you pretty far because at least they know why you'd be standing in the middle of the street, plus I was able to take my time and set up for the shot.

When I worked for PRTC, Wes came down one day and he wanted to take some photos so I just stood out there with him in case  any operators had a weird reaction.  It's not like the PRTC Transit Center was the most likely area for photographers so sometimes sticking out like a sore thumb may be perceived as a little weird.  You have to pick you battles and understand that people are a little edgy, particularly if they're in the shot itself.  You never know where it's going to be published.

[WMATAGMOAGH]

In addition to Pentagon Transit Center, photography within the Pentagon Station itself is also illegal.

[metroman177]

Everywhere you go now big brother is watching... I've always said "In God we trust, everyone else must be video taped". ...so I see no big deal in taken picture of buses or anything you may like. I prefer buses because of the vass schemes out there and as time goes by schemes change and sometimes its' good to go back and see how it used to be. Everything has a history, I hope it, perserved respectfully....and stay out of those grey areas. It never hurts to ask.
I'm Mark and that's my two cents, if anybody asked me....but no one asked me.

[WES]

Not knowing how they would be in Albuquerque when I wanted to take pictures of their Rapid Ride buses, I just walked up to the operator at the transit center and asked him if it was ok.  I'm not that desperate for shots that I'd put myself at risk for even putting up for any hassle whether it was a "right" or not, and he was really cool.  Sometimes just asking someone gets you pretty far because at least they know why you'd be standing in the middle of the street, plus I was able to take my time and set up for the shot.

When I worked for PRTC, Wes came down one day and he wanted to take some photos so I just stood out there with him in case  any operators had a weird reaction.  It's not like the PRTC Transit Center was the most likely area for photographers so sometimes sticking out like a sore thumb may be perceived as a little weird.  You have to pick you battles and understand that people are a little edgy, particularly if they're in the shot itself.  You never know where it's going to be published.

And even with you there, Perry, the operator of the bus I was catching back to Springfield went to ask you questions about me.  I guess that day wasn't probably the best day to take picks, as that was the around the time those British bus/rail bombings happened.

To a point, even though the public may be allowed onto a transit center, it is to a point considered county/state property and they may not allow photography there.  With that said, the Pentagon expressadly says and puts pictures up saying no photography.


Some of these drivers and workers don't know that practically everyone taking a pic of a bus, is an enthusiast, if some nut job terrorist want to find out what a bus looks like, the bus/rail manufacturers' sites have the drawings and layouts of their models there.  I also think that since bus photography is still considered rare, it stirs up some people who might not see a person taking a bus picture on a daily basis and therefore might want to confront someone doing so.  I remember a few years back, I was at the Herndon-Monroe P&R and  while I was waiting for the 5A to come(actually it was running WAY late), so I decided to take some pics.  A few minutes later, the supervisor comes towards me and starts asking some questions, I just stated that I was just taking bus pics.  Apparently some operators were conserned about someone taking pics there (even though I have taken pics there before, but not during rush hour).  He really didn't say anything else just walked away.  I didn't take anymore pics and just waited for my 5A to come.

[DCT S9Z4Z6]

Here at the Tampa Intl airport, some youngins got off my bus at the economy garage, with all sorts of professional cameras & such. I asked if their car was parked nearby, they said no, they were there to shoot pics. I asked if they had permission from Tampa Airport Police, thats when they got all stupid (not from around here. .  if you know what I'm not saying).

I notified the other dispatcher, who turned the garage cameras on the fellas, and about 2 minutes after they set up the tripods & such, in thru the garage came 3 screaming TIA police cars, so fast, you would have thought there was a new young waitress at the local doughnut shop.

Bottom line, the kids, were middle eastern students at the local university, and TIA police took them to the police station, and after checking w/ the university, about their student status, allowed them to depart. TSA gets VERY NERVOUS when people are next to secure areas of the airport w/o permission & reasons why they are there.

About 2 weeks later, the kids DID return, but this time w/ the blessings of the University & the TSA, and the TIA police.

Its all a matter of LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION.

[mrpete]

And don't forget Amtrak's policy of not allowing anyone on station platforms unless they hold a valid ticket for that day, with or without a camera.

[WayneNYC]

Thanks for starting this topic.  I'm happy to say that I'm one of those people who, in my opinion does the right thing in regards to transit photography.  If you ever browse the NYC-based boards you'll see lots of stuff about people being approached by police and/or employees to ask why they're taking photos of buses/trains.  More often than not, many of them seem to take their "right" to an extreme.  I does no one good to mouth off and cause a confrontation.  Those times when I'm approached, I'll explain my actions and be ready to leave depending on the response I get.  Some are very understanding and friendly toward transit fans and some aren't.  One thing I'll never do is to trespass onto an agencies' property for any reason.  I've gotten pics on a transit agencies' property a few times, but all times I was either with an employee or at a roadeo.

Then others seem to stand two feet from the front of a bus and start shooting away.  I can see why this may concern a B/O.  I think the way to do this is to have the balance between being discreet, but not secretive or at the other extreme... "In your face" type of pics. 

 

[RailBus63]

Here at the Tampa Intl airport, some youngins got off my bus at the economy garage, with all sorts of professional cameras & such. I asked if their car was parked nearby, they said no, they were there to shoot pics. I asked if they had permission from Tampa Airport Police, thats when they got all stupid (not from around here. .  if you know what I'm not saying).

I notified the other dispatcher, who turned the garage cameras on the fellas, and about 2 minutes after they set up the tripods & such, in thru the garage came 3 screaming TIA police cars, so fast, you would have thought there was a new young waitress at the local doughnut shop.

Bottom line, the kids, were middle eastern students at the local university, and TIA police took them to the police station, and after checking w/ the university, about their student status, allowed them to depart. TSA gets VERY NERVOUS when people are next to secure areas of the airport w/o permission & reasons why they are there.

About 2 weeks later, the kids DID return, but this time w/ the blessings of the University & the TSA, and the TIA police.

Its all a matter of LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION.

I would have used a little common sense and sought permission beforehand, but unless there a posted notice at the airport entrances or the garage indicating that photography is illegal, then those students did nothing wrong and certainly did not deserve to be brought in for questioning.

[DCT S9Z4Z6]

Here at the Tampa Intl airport, some youngins got off my bus at the economy garage, with all sorts of professional cameras & such. I asked if their car was parked nearby, they said no, they were there to shoot pics. I asked if they had permission from Tampa Airport Police, thats when they got all stupid (not from around here. .  if you know what I'm not saying).

I notified the other dispatcher, who turned the garage cameras on the fellas, and about 2 minutes after they set up the tripods & such, in thru the garage came 3 screaming TIA police cars, so fast, you would have thought there was a new young waitress at the local doughnut shop.

Bottom line, the kids, were middle eastern students at the local university, and TIA police took them to the police station, and after checking w/ the university, about their student status, allowed them to depart. TSA gets VERY NERVOUS when people are next to secure areas of the airport w/o permission & reasons why they are there.

About 2 weeks later, the kids DID return, but this time w/ the blessings of the University & the TSA, and the TIA police.

Its all a matter of LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION.

I would have used a little common sense and sought permission beforehand, but unless there a posted notice at the airport entrances or the garage indicating that photography is illegal, then those students did nothing wrong and certainly did not deserve to be brought in for questioning.

As I said. .  the students "were NOT from around here."
With CentCom here at MacDill & yes, there are signs that prohibit some activities, especially activities next to active airport runways, the airport police were just doing their thing, to ensure that the students were "just taking pictures" and nothing else.

Asking permission 1st, goes a long way. I guess with the kids background, that was a concept they didn't understand. 

[MetroLinerXLZ]

From my experiences, most people have been very friendly. Every now and then, I get asked something like "What the hell are you doing" by those walking by me, but nothing serious. Though I did get stopped by a Metro Police officer at Shady Grove station once for taking photos because people got "concerned" about me doing that. But I had on my lucky shirt on though...

In my hometown, just about everyone (including the CTS drivers and most UTS drivers) know who I am. I never have nothing to worry about there.

And for those who get concerned about whether you snap pics or vids etc., just remember this...unless it's in a prohibited area like the Pentagon, you have the right to snap your pics and videos as long as you're not hurting anybody. Keep in mind the 1st Amendment is on our side here. Also, find a custom t-shirt shop that does custom print shirts and get it done like mine in the picture attached.

[mrpete]

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