WMATA Board Heads Need to Roll

[79MetroExtraMD]

Well I'd like to hear what complaints people would have if we just willy nilly discarded 1/3rd of the rail fleet.

I think a solution to this problem, for now, is to sandwich Rohrs.  Put them only in the middle of 6- and 8-car trainsets so that frontal contact accidents won't result in telescoping.  This would be a pain for dispatchers but wouldn't impact service ... and it might even make the operators happier because they'll have new cabs :-)

I'd have to agree with that. Having Rohrs sandwiched in between Bredas, CAFs, and Alstoms would be nice, but you still have those all Rohr trains that are the bread and breath of the Red line. The new 7000s will eventually replace the Rohrs. As for speaking on the age of the railcars, we can compare to BART who still operates their original A and B cars from the 1970s (built by Rohr as well) everyday on all five of their lines carrying commuters across the Bay Area. Also, weren't the 1000s rehabbed sometime in the 90s or so. I can't remember.

[WES]

I believe the Rohrs underwent a rehab, but I think not to the level that the Bredas are being done now.  Sidelining the Rohrs would be a bad decision.  Orange line trains are packed as it is and try getting a seat after an Orange line train leaves Landover, it ain't happening and don't get me started on the Red line.  Having Rohr trains sandwiched in between the newer cars is  a good idea.

The one thing that sometimes prevents WMATA from getting the newer cars sooner............MONEY.  Trains aren't cheap and on top of that it takes around 5 years from the order to delivery.  Could WMATA have replaced those trains earlier, yes, but if the money isn't there, then it can't happen.

If this crash didn't tell the local governments that there needs to be dedicated funding, then I don't know what will.

[LandoverDivision]

Just heard on the news that WMATA is recieving $3 Billion from Maryland to upgrade some of their trains.

[WMATAGMOAGH]

Well I'd like to hear what complaints people would have if we just willy nilly discarded 1/3rd of the rail fleet.

I think a solution to this problem, for now, is to sandwich Rohrs.  Put them only in the middle of 6- and 8-car trainsets so that frontal contact accidents won't result in telescoping.  This would be a pain for dispatchers but wouldn't impact service ... and it might even make the operators happier because they'll have new cabs :-)

I'd have to agree with that. Having Rohrs sandwiched in between Bredas, CAFs, and Alstoms would be nice, but you still have those all Rohr trains that are the bread and breath of the Red line. The new 7000s will eventually replace the Rohrs. As for speaking on the age of the railcars, we can compare to BART who still operates their original A and B cars from the 1970s (built by Rohr as well) everyday on all five of their lines carrying commuters across the Bay Area. Also, weren't the 1000s rehabbed sometime in the 90s or so. I can't remember.

The cars can be shifted around if they needed to sandwich the Rohrs in the middle of the trains.  I still think that measure is overkill though.

The Rohrs were not rehabbed, but overhauled.  Not nearly as extensive as a rehab.

Just heard on the news that WMATA is recieving $3 Billion from Maryland to upgrade some of their trains.

Steny Hoyer is simply proposing legislation that would give WMATA this money.  WMATA doesn't have the money yet, but it is likely that Hoyer will deliver on this considering he is Majority Leader.

[Tristan]

New bus purchase, Orange Line Extension, Pick one I woukld rather have bad service than deadly service

Hindsight is 20-20, but I wonder if you would have said that if this accident didn't happen...

Being on the outside of things, it's easy for you to say "fire the entire board" or whatever, but realize that even if they immediately set in motion efforts to address all the recommendations from the 2004 crash....well a new car order would probably just be starting to arrive, or the alternative -- sending Rohrs out 2 by 2 for rehab, would probably only have been going on for about a year.............there's nothing "fast" they could have done short of sidelining the cars altogether that would address the 2004 issues that might have contributed to the severity of this accident.

[smithavechuck]

A new twist - track circuitry - is also being examined by the NTSB.  There are many factors that led to this crash.  (see link below from Yahoo.com).

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090625/ap_on_re_us/us_dc_metro_train_derailment

Chuck

[WMAveteran]

Well, I have to agree with Tristan.  There is enough blame to go around but the real problem is that MD, VA and DC cannot agree on a stable source of funding for METRO that would allow for the repairs and running transit service.  The METRO Board acted to run a transit service and make repairs and enhancements when the three jurisdictions would fund them.  This is the same choice AMTRAK made.  MD, VA and DC need to provide dedicated sales tax revenue or income tax revenue for transportation and use that money only for that purpose.  Recently they all "borrowed" from the transportation funds to pay for other items and we all know that money will never be repaid.  Changing the METRO board membership won't make any difference when the jurisdictions that appointed the members don't provide dedicated funding to run the system.

[Antozilla]

Well I heard on another board so take this for what it is worth that:

1. the PTC on the red line was so rickety and unreliabel that sections of it were TURNED OFF to prevent trains being stopped in error.

Meaning you were running trains at 60 MPH in 'dark territory".

2. There will be many retirements in the upper level of Metro

If this is true, not only does the Metro Board need to be replaced, somer people on the Board and in management need to go to jail and wwe will start with manslaughter chargers. 

[Antozilla]

The LAST thing Metro needs is dedicated funding.  Metro has not shown itself to be a bastion of fiscal restraint or responsibility and to give them an dedicated trough to sup from instead of making them justify their expenses is asking to waste the taxpayers money. 

[Antozilla]

Tristan, I ahve been against dedicated funding and some of Metro's capital projects for sometime so the answer is yes if the accident had not happened I would bne opposed.  The issue is priorities and obviously for Mwtro expansion is more important than safety.

As for the Rohr cars there are things that could have been done to eithe rimporve them or minimize their faults and some of that you seen on this board and they cost no money at all but as is often the case with Metro except when they have their hands out, nothing was done. 

[Tritransit Area]

I believe your new general manager was working to improve safety conditions on the Metrorail.  Unfortunately, this type of stuff takes time, and unfortunately, he started too late to prevent these this accident from happening.

But with the circuitry problem in that section of track and potential brake failure, how long has this problem existed?  How much maintenance has WMATA deferred?  These are the questions that are in people's heads, especially since we all know that WMATA is straining as it is.

And they want to bring a new rail line into the mix...into one of the busiest sections of the Metrorail system...

[Sand Box John]

WMATAGMOAGH

John,

Can you please tell us what capital project should have not occurred so the 1000 Series cars could have been strengthened?  It isn't like they didn't spend that money at all, they chose to spend it on something else that was deemed to be more important at the time.

Oren,

There is no logical reason to increase the crash worthiness of the 1k cars. Strengthening worn out transit car that have stress cracks in the bodies make no sense from a spending stand point. These cars are slated to be sent to the aluminum recycler within a few short years. The only logical thing to do is replace them.

[Tristan]

John,

If replacement is the option, can you identify a list of capital projects started since 2004 (effectively 2005, when we got NTSB's recommendations) that total $900 million dollars, so we are justified in lynching the current Board of Directors, many of whom have not even been around since 2004?

Thanks
-Tristan

[Tristan]

Tristan, I ahve been against dedicated funding and some of Metro's capital projects for sometime so the answer is yes if the accident had not happened I would bne opposed.  The issue is priorities and obviously for Mwtro expansion is more important than safety.

As for the Rohr cars there are things that could have been done to eithe rimporve them or minimize their faults and some of that you seen on this board and they cost no money at all but as is often the case with Metro except when they have their hands out, nothing was done. 

What could be done that would not cost money?

Also, the Board of Directors -- for the last time -- did not turn the PTC off, the Board of Directors is responsible for OVERSIGHT, not for day-to-day duties.  I don't think anyone here is holding WMATA blameless for the accident, especially in the light of things that could apparently have been done, what we're saying is that your issue with the WMATA BOARD is misdirected.  The Board only reacts to the information it is given.  Maybe it's a structural issue in how the responsibilities of the Board are defined, maybe it's something else, but even after Woodley Park, the General Manager's staff presented all the data about how repairs to the Rohrs are not justified, the Board listens and agrees or disagrees.  They act on what is reported to them.

[WMATAGMOAGH]

WMATAGMOAGH

John,

Can you please tell us what capital project should have not occurred so the 1000 Series cars could have been strengthened?  It isn't like they didn't spend that money at all, they chose to spend it on something else that was deemed to be more important at the time.

Oren,

There is no logical reason to increase the crash worthiness of the 1k cars. Strengthening worn out transit car that have stress cracks in the bodies make no sense from a spending stand point. These cars are slated to be sent to the aluminum recycler within a few short years. The only logical thing to do is replace them.

I agree with you, the question was directed to the other John.