NY MTA and Nova

[mrpete]

http://www.metro-magazine.com/News/Story/2009/06/Nova-Bus-to-supply-N-Y-MTA-fleet.aspx

[WES]

If this artic order works out, you might want to start playing "Taps" for Orion, because if the TA likes how these handle, then they will probably start buying their 40 foot hybrids from NOVA.

And who's left to buy from Orion, WMATA.....no f'ed up the Orion VII order, Ride On.......no f'ed up their Orion VII orders, Fairfax Connector.........nope current Orion VII order is having problems, DASH.....nope f'ed up their last Orion 5 order and the last 3 were consistant Orion buyers.  Most of the other major T/As have gone with either New Flyer or NABI and in some instances Gillig.  Orion better pray that NOVA doesn't make a CNG model, which I don't think they have as of yet.

[79MetroExtraMD]

Don't forget about the Designline hybrids they're supposed to get. I heard they really liked them. I don't think we'll see NYC breaking ties with Orion anytime soon especially since 90% of the TAs in the metro region have things from Orion (LI, RI, Westchester, etc)

[Scrabbleship]

Most of the non-MTA agencies in the NY Metro area wan't nothing to do with Orion. Bee Line is getting NABI hybrids, Suffolk Transit had one bad Orion V order, the two CT agencies that bought from Orion (DART and NTD) have gone to Gillig, and NJT banned Orion after Orion caused a scandal there some years back.
Upstate, however, things seem to be in Orion's favor--CENTRO is getting some CNG NG's, TCAT may get some NG hybrids, BC Transit's in bed with Orion because BAE's in Binghamton. What business Nova might take as TA's become disillusioned with Gillig remains to be seen.

[WayneNYC]

If this artic order works out, you might want to start playing "Taps" for Orion, because if the TA likes how these handle, then they will probably start buying their 40 foot hybrids from NOVA.

And who's left to buy from Orion, WMATA.....no f'ed up the Orion VII order, Ride On.......no f'ed up their Orion VII orders, Fairfax Connector.........nope current Orion VII order is having problems, DASH.....nope f'ed up their last Orion 5 order and the last 3 were consistant Orion buyers.  Most of the other major T/As have gone with either New Flyer or NABI and in some instances Gillig.  Orion better pray that NOVA doesn't make a CNG model, which I don't think they have as of yet.

Wes - I think you're correct.  IMO, those NOVAs will very likely tell which direction the TA looks in terms of future purchases.  Remember, the TA still hadn't purchased artics for Brooklyn and Queens divisions.  If they're happy with the group of NOVA LFAs... You can bet that a larger order will follow for both NYCTA and MTAB.  Also, our first group of artics are '96/'97 buses, 1000-1039/1040-1109 look great but, they're getting old.  I'm hoping for the NOVA LF-A to do well.  They'll be at 126th St depot which is probably a great choice considering the crowds on the M15, heavy stop and go traffic and typical NYC streets.   

Don't forget about the Designline hybrids they're supposed to get. I heard they really liked them. I don't think we'll see NYC breaking ties with Orion anytime soon especially since 90% of the TAs in the metro region have things from Orion (LI, RI, Westchester, etc)

It isn't that the TA is all that dedicated to Orion.  It has happended this way because NYCTA is under the MTA.  The MTA is a state agency and therefore the TA (and MTAB) were sort of forced to buy from Orion which builds them in upstate NY.

LIB - Also a MTA agency, which is why their fleet is 100% Orion.

Westchester County's Bee Line is not under the MTA umbrella which is why they have Neoplans and getting NABIs.  I'd bet that Bee Line may have gotten pressure to buy from Orion but, I'm glad they were able to buy elsewhere in addition to their Orion buses they already have.

[OrionFlyer]

Will the NOVA artics have those "upside down" windows like the test model?

[79MetroExtraMD]

If this artic order works out, you might want to start playing "Taps" for Orion, because if the TA likes how these handle, then they will probably start buying their 40 foot hybrids from NOVA.

And who's left to buy from Orion, WMATA.....no f'ed up the Orion VII order, Ride On.......no f'ed up their Orion VII orders, Fairfax Connector.........nope current Orion VII order is having problems, DASH.....nope f'ed up their last Orion 5 order and the last 3 were consistant Orion buyers.  Most of the other major T/As have gone with either New Flyer or NABI and in some instances Gillig.  Orion better pray that NOVA doesn't make a CNG model, which I don't think they have as of yet.

Wes - I think you're correct.  IMO, those NOVAs will very likely tell which direction the TA looks in terms of future purchases.  Remember, the TA still hadn't purchased artics for Brooklyn and Queens divisions.  If they're happy with the group of NOVA LFAs... You can bet that a larger order will follow for both NYCTA and MTAB.  Also, our first group of artics are '96/'97 buses, 1000-1039/1040-1109 look great but, they're getting old.  I'm hoping for the NOVA LF-A to do well.  They'll be at 126th St depot which is probably a great choice considering the crowds on the M15, heavy stop and go traffic and typical NYC streets.   

Don't forget about the Designline hybrids they're supposed to get. I heard they really liked them. I don't think we'll see NYC breaking ties with Orion anytime soon especially since 90% of the TAs in the metro region have things from Orion (LI, RI, Westchester, etc)

It isn't that the TA is all that dedicated to Orion.  It has happended this way because NYCTA is under the MTA.  The MTA is a state agency and therefore the TA (and MTAB) were sort of forced to buy from Orion which builds them in upstate NY.

LIB - Also a MTA agency, which is why their fleet is 100% Orion.

Westchester County's Bee Line is not under the MTA umbrella which is why they have Neoplans and getting NABIs.  I'd bet that Bee Line may have gotten pressure to buy from Orion but, I'm glad they were able to buy elsewhere in addition to their Orion buses they already have.

At least now, there isn't going to be that close call of having an all standardized fleet that almost happened in the 90s with the RTS situation. It's nice to see that NYCMTA is going for some variety. The Novabus thing was a given since I heard from a couple folks that MTA liked the artics. (Imagine them with DE62LFAs had that relationship didn't turn sour).

[WayneNYC]

If this artic order works out, you might want to start playing "Taps" for Orion, because if the TA likes how these handle, then they will probably start buying their 40 foot hybrids from NOVA.

And who's left to buy from Orion, WMATA.....no f'ed up the Orion VII order, Ride On.......no f'ed up their Orion VII orders, Fairfax Connector.........nope current Orion VII order is having problems, DASH.....nope f'ed up their last Orion 5 order and the last 3 were consistant Orion buyers.  Most of the other major T/As have gone with either New Flyer or NABI and in some instances Gillig.  Orion better pray that NOVA doesn't make a CNG model, which I don't think they have as of yet.

Wes - I think you're correct.  IMO, those NOVAs will very likely tell which direction the TA looks in terms of future purchases.  Remember, the TA still hadn't purchased artics for Brooklyn and Queens divisions.  If they're happy with the group of NOVA LFAs... You can bet that a larger order will follow for both NYCTA and MTAB.  Also, our first group of artics are '96/'97 buses, 1000-1039/1040-1109 look great but, they're getting old.  I'm hoping for the NOVA LF-A to do well.  They'll be at 126th St depot which is probably a great choice considering the crowds on the M15, heavy stop and go traffic and typical NYC streets.   

Don't forget about the Designline hybrids they're supposed to get. I heard they really liked them. I don't think we'll see NYC breaking ties with Orion anytime soon especially since 90% of the TAs in the metro region have things from Orion (LI, RI, Westchester, etc)

It isn't that the TA is all that dedicated to Orion.  It has happended this way because NYCTA is under the MTA.  The MTA is a state agency and therefore the TA (and MTAB) were sort of forced to buy from Orion which builds them in upstate NY.

LIB - Also a MTA agency, which is why their fleet is 100% Orion.

Westchester County's Bee Line is not under the MTA umbrella which is why they have Neoplans and getting NABIs.  I'd bet that Bee Line may have gotten pressure to buy from Orion but, I'm glad they were able to buy elsewhere in addition to their Orion buses they already have.

At least now, there isn't going to be that close call of having an all standardized fleet that almost happened in the 90s with the RTS situation. It's nice to see that NYCMTA is going for some variety. The Novabus thing was a given since I heard from a couple folks that MTA liked the artics. (Imagine them with DE62LFAs had that relationship didn't turn sour).

Trust me.  There's no desire on NYCTA's part to get a diverse fleet.  If anything they'd prefer to keep it simple as possible.  Nova was the obvoius choice as they're not on good terms with both New Flyer and NABI.  Yes, the TA was happy with the demo LFA, which is why they placed this small order.  If all goes well with this order you can expect them to place a larger order soon. 

[WMATAGMOAGH]

Most of the non-MTA agencies in the NY Metro area wan't nothing to do with Orion. Bee Line is getting NABI hybrids, Suffolk Transit had one bad Orion V order, the two CT agencies that bought from Orion (DART and NTD) have gone to Gillig, and NJT banned Orion after Orion caused a scandal there some years back.
Upstate, however, things seem to be in Orion's favor--CENTRO is getting some CNG NG's, TCAT may get some NG hybrids, BC Transit's in bed with Orion because BAE's in Binghamton. What business Nova might take as TA's become disillusioned with Gillig remains to be seen.

Who said anything about Orion NG Hybrids for TCAT?

TCAT has yet to decide who they will go with for their next batch of buses (which will be funded with stimulus money).  Their plan is to simply take up the best option order they can find to keep the price low and to get the buses as soon as possible.  TCAT may also be going back to diesel instead of continuing to purchase hybrids, but I don't think a final decision in that regard has been made either. 

[Scrabbleship]

I knew that New Flyer's refusal to restart the D60(HF) line for MTA was the end of that relationship, but how did MTA and NABI end up on bad terms? IIRC, the MTA has never demoed anything of NABI's and with Orion being fueled by their orders I can't think anything NABI could have done to have ticked off the MTA.

Was there some anti-gay rights vote in Alabama that I missed?    (a bonus for those who get that reference)

[WayneNYC]

I think I was mistaken when I named NABI.  I believe it was Neoplan.  NYCTA has tested an AN440 and AN460 back in the 1980s.  I don't recall them ever testing a NABI.

[daimlerbuses]

If this artic order works out, you might want to start playing "Taps" for Orion, because if the TA likes how these handle, then they will probably start buying their 40 foot hybrids from NOVA.

And who's left to buy from Orion, WMATA.....no f'ed up the Orion VII order, Ride On.......no f'ed up their Orion VII orders, Fairfax Connector.........nope current Orion VII order is having problems, DASH.....nope f'ed up their last Orion 5 order and the last 3 were consistant Orion buyers.  Most of the other major T/As have gone with either New Flyer or NABI and in some instances Gillig.  Orion better pray that NOVA doesn't make a CNG model, which I don't think they have as of yet.

I'm sorry, but what proof do you have that Orion "f'ed" up all those orders? Just because they don't buy from Orion anymore does NOT mean that they don't want anything to do with Orion anymore. There are other factors that come into play - cost, delivery time, etc. And for the record, the last time I checked with Orion (a few weeks ago), there were more Fairfax Orion VII NG's on the production line despite the problems that are occurring. As well, DASH does plan to order some Orion VII NG's, apparently they requested a Stainless Steel frame.

Ottawa, ON, Houston and Seattle used to be major NFI customers. I suppose because they switched to Orion means that NFI f'ed up and they aren't happy with them. I suppose because Brampton now buys from Nova, they aren't happy with NFI and Orion. Not at all - because there are other factors which I mentioned that come into play.

Although I will agree with you on WMATA, they weren't too impressed. Initial order placed in 2000...and the buses finally show up in 2005-2006!

[WayneNYC]

We may not have actual proof that WMATA is unhappy with Orion, but it is known.  Montgomery County, Ride On is most definitely unhappy with Orion and we have this info. from a well-placed insider.

[WES]

If this artic order works out, you might want to start playing "Taps" for Orion, because if the TA likes how these handle, then they will probably start buying their 40 foot hybrids from NOVA.

And who's left to buy from Orion, WMATA.....no f'ed up the Orion VII order, Ride On.......no f'ed up their Orion VII orders, Fairfax Connector.........nope current Orion VII order is having problems, DASH.....nope f'ed up their last Orion 5 order and the last 3 were consistant Orion buyers.  Most of the other major T/As have gone with either New Flyer or NABI and in some instances Gillig.  Orion better pray that NOVA doesn't make a CNG model, which I don't think they have as of yet.

I'm sorry, but what proof do you have that Orion "f'ed" up all those orders? Just because they don't buy from Orion anymore does NOT mean that they don't want anything to do with Orion anymore. There are other factors that come into play - cost, delivery time, etc. And for the record, the last time I checked with Orion (a few weeks ago), there were more Fairfax Orion VII NG's on the production line despite the problems that are occurring. As well, DASH does plan to order some Orion VII NG's, apparently they requested a Stainless Steel frame.

Ottawa, ON, Houston and Seattle used to be major NFI customers. I suppose because they switched to Orion means that NFI f'ed up and they aren't happy with them. I suppose because Brampton now buys from Nova, they aren't happy with NFI and Orion. Not at all - because there are other factors which I mentioned that come into play.

Although I will agree with you on WMATA, they weren't too impressed. Initial order placed in 2000...and the buses finally show up in 2005-2006!

I will bring up RIDE ON's last Orion order.  The main thing and this was that there were technical issues that caused the buses to be sent back over and over again, finally they came...........after the Flyers and Gilligs who were supposed to come way after the last batch of Orion VIIs came.

WMATA's first few Orion VIIs had to be sent back for some unknown technical issues--I don't work for WMATA so I don't have details.  Yea, buses are supposed to have some teething problems, but if a group of buses have to sent back and they don't come back for a while then something wasn't built right.  And if what I heard was correct, WMATA was supposed to order some 35 foot NGs, which they didn't order, they are ordering for their CNG division at Bladensburg, DE37LFAs.

So if Fairfax Connector and DASH are possibly ordering Orions then their issues wasn't as bad as some others.  And in anywhre in that statement did I say that they will never order from Orion, no I didn't, I just said that Orion screwed up some orders and that those who have had some last buses ordered from Orion ordered other buses.  And if you remember, WMATA's first Neoplan order was pure crap and did WMATA order from Neoplan again, well do Neoplans roll in DC today, yes they do and though no proof on this but WMATA might have chosen Neoplan for their last diesel bus order.

And BTW that Orion VII order was I believe placed in 2002 or 2003 and those buses had to be delievered because WMATA didn't build the CNG facility at Four Mile Run till 2004-05.

[daimlerbuses]

Thanks for the insight. I may have taken it the wrong way as it seemed like you were saying that because they don't order from Orion anymore is because they're crap, and such.

Intersting with Ride-On, because I emailed them once out of curiosity - and the response I got about their Orion VII's (when I specified their numbers) was that "we are quite happy with our Orions" and "Now that all the kinks have been worked out, we are seeing increased reliability" However, First Impressions do mean something, and I guess that did play a factor.

What years are Ride-On's? Without guessing I'm going to say 2003 or early 2004. Why? Simply because during that period Orion was having all sorts of issues with the VII in all departments, but at least that's behind us now and it seems to have evolved in to a fairly reliable bus. It's too bad there was all this problems, because Andreas Strecker (President, CEO of Daimler) told me when I spoke to him in person that the source of these issues lied mostly with Dinex - the manufacturer of the electrical systems that power the buses. Looks like Orion got the bad end of the deal, as they just simply happen to use these suppliers.

As for the Orion VII order, I do know that a very small order was placed in 2000 or so, then expanded later. Even in 2002, that's still far too much time for buses to be delivered!

Sorry for the long essay posts...