WMATA only ran DC and intra-jurisdiction routes

[btconet]

It will be interesting to see how the shared facility works, to see if that could be model for future arrangements.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the current system is necessarily broken, but I do see some room for improvements.  Yes I agree there are too many stops, but from an outsiders eyes, I might also argue there's a little too much variation in spots that results in gobs of "routes" that only the most seasoned transit fans such as ourselves can begin to grasp, and are bewildering to prospective riders.  Sure, they're quirky and often historical, but also quite confusing.  Meanwhile, some hubs that seem like they should be directly connected (Greenbelt and Silver Spring for example) are not.  Yes, there's METRO, but considering the fares, it does kind of put a sobering spin for the person who needs to catch a bus to a hub, then connect hubs, and then catch another bus.

Many places have duplicating services between WMATA and jurisdictional agencies, while other areas which could desperately use earlier/later/weekend/ANY service don't have it.  It would be nice to get a feel for the purpose of every route in the region to see where resources might best be used to make a more comprehensive and connective network.

There are a lot of good things going on the in the area, and the inter-agency bus fare system is definitely one of them.  It would just be nice to capitalize upon it

[rideonrulez]

Personally, I would love the local systems to take over all the WMATA routes though only some jurisdictions would actually make the service better then what it is today. I agree with WMAveteran in a sense that it works fine today. But the whole reason why the local systems were created in the first place was WhyMATA had it's focus on rail (though they claim it is shifting there priorities) all these years and never really cared for the rubber wheeled side.  I would love to see all the variety of buses/paint schemes and whatever other things that the local jurisdictions might bring to the table. I would suggest to make a regional route numbering system for the whole DC area if it was to ever come alive.

[djsiknik]

After riding various bus systems i do like the "regional" bus system approach. Sound Transit (ST) runs all the "regional" stuff and the the local jurisdictions run "local" service. Even in "local" service they cross county lines and the local jurisdictions also run differant ST routes. The ST rt.574 was actually run by Pierce Transit but used buses in ST paint (MCIs). The local jurisdictions making up ST also do the same so ST dosent actually have its own depot AFAIK. I know when the regional light rail opens up, ST will have its own facilities for once. I personally like the idea of a "regional" transit provider and wish Metro would give up routes to the jurisdictions as it is actually cheaper in the long run. Of course Metro would have to give up some facilities and buses (who would get what?) and we need to keep the already ineffect fare schedule. Also we NEED a Regional route numbering system that coordinates with MD MTA also. Imagine all Baltimore bus route numbers starting with a "B" and Ride on all starts with "M"(for Mongomery county),FFC with an "F" and so on and so forth. I am tired of Metro living in the PAST with the retarded route number scheme. We need to move foward from the past route numbers and WHO cares that its "historical" (IMO its "hysterical"). Metro is WAY to expensive to run as is and its the reason I think the local jurisdictions should run the "local" routes. Remember WMATA is run by the individual jurisdictions on what kind of services it runs(or in PGs case dosent run).

[Scrabbleship]

After riding various bus systems i do like the "regional" bus system approach. Sound Transit (ST) runs all the "regional" stuff and the the local jurisdictions run "local" service. Even in "local" service they cross county lines and the local jurisdictions also run differant ST routes. The ST rt.574 was actually run by Pierce Transit but used buses in ST paint (MCIs). The local jurisdictions making up ST also do the same so ST dosent actually have its own depot AFAIK. I know when the regional light rail opens up, ST will have its own facilities for once. I personally like the idea of a "regional" transit provider and wish Metro would give up routes to the jurisdictions as it is actually cheaper in the long run. Of course Metro would have to give up some facilities and buses (who would get what?) and we need to keep the already ineffect fare schedule. Also we NEED a Regional route numbering system that coordinates with MD MTA also. Imagine all Baltimore bus route numbers starting with a "B" and Ride on all starts with "M"(for Mongomery county),FFC with an "F" and so on and so forth. I am tired of Metro living in the PAST with the retarded route number scheme. We need to move foward from the past route numbers and WHO cares that its "historical" (IMO its "hysterical"). Metro is WAY to expensive to run as is and its the reason I think the local jurisdictions should run the "local" routes. Remember WMATA is run by the individual jurisdictions on what kind of services it runs(or in PGs case dosent run).

You make a good point, however would all the municipalities want into such a scheme. I'm sure Maryland would love to hand off MTA to a regional scheme or that PG would want out of the transit business, but would Montgomery or Alexandria want to fork over Ride On or DASH?

And to respond to an earlier post, I'm sure that if Metrobus became a solely DC/interjurisdiction organization that they would force PG to run an equal level of service on the routes they'd be getting before handing them over. Would they?

[WayneNYC]

To play a bit of devil's advocate.  How do you prevent the "separation/isolation" of services from eventually happening again?  Even with the best of intentions, these agencies are managed by humans who have different opinions, attitudes, egos and so on.  My thinking is for this to work out for passengers, especially those crossing into other jurisdictions, there needs to be a significant amount cooperation among the various agencies.  With a growing area like this, there will be those times when agencies need to work together and if one disagrees with the other, something/somebody is likely to suffer.

[btconet]

i was trying to conceive a universal numbering system in DC myself for the smaller agencies.  Since most of these routes feed Metro anyway, I was sort of thinking a Color/Number combination.  For example, the Ride-On #70 would become the "Red 70."  since it feeds the Red Line.

However, this is problematic as how does one designate DASH buses that feed both the Green and Yellow lines in ALX.  Also, you'd have overlapping agencies under the same numbering scheme.  ART would operate the "Orange 41" while FFX would operate the "Orange 427"

I'll admit it's far from easy to categorize hundreds of bus routes in a single area operated by over a half a dozen agencies in a way that is logical and easy for people to comprehend.

[79MetroExtraMD]

i was trying to conceive a universal numbering system in DC myself for the smaller agencies.  Since most of these routes feed Metro anyway, I was sort of thinking a Color/Number combination.  For example, the Ride-On #70 would become the "Red 70."  since it feeds the Red Line.

However, this is problematic as how does one designate DASH buses that feed both the Green and Yellow lines in ALX.  Also, you'd have overlapping agencies under the same numbering scheme.  ART would operate the "Orange 41" while FFX would operate the "Orange 427"

I'll admit it's far from easy to categorize hundreds of bus routes in a single area operated by over a half a dozen agencies in a way that is logical and easy for people to comprehend.

Numbering schemes wouldn't work here. Just to farfetched. Techinically, WMATA's lettered routes can be translated to numbers (scheduling and operations wise). As for doing some kind of scheme (forgive me Tristan), it could be possible with Google Transit data to make a feed for the various agencies in the region.

[WayneNYC]

In regards to route numbering, how about something along the lines of NJTransit and LACMTA style.  I think one thing that makes for confusion is that WMATA has tons of route numbers.  I always thought it was odd that a branches of a particular line gets it's own route number.  To someone not from the area, if they looked a bus stop sign along Columbia Pike, they could reasonably conclude that a nearly endless supply of buses should be passing since there's so many 16 line routes.

[btconet]

That's one of those odd things I've never liked about WMATA, and they don't seem consistent in the usage. 

Why a J7 AND a J9 for such a minor deviation, but the 5A is the same whether it serves Herndon Monroe or Tysons Westpark or both.

And letter-number combos don't have any general purpose in real life.  Whereas someone remembers that the 12 bus is the one they want cause that's the date of their birthday, it's easy to interchange a K2 and F4 into any combination of the two in memory.

[79MetroExtraMD]

That's one of those odd things I've never liked about WMATA, and they don't seem consistent in the usage. 

Why a J7 AND a J9 for such a minor deviation, but the 5A is the same whether it serves Herndon Monroe or Tysons Westpark or both.

And letter-number combos don't have any general purpose in real life.  Whereas someone remembers that the 12 bus is the one they want cause that's the date of their birthday, it's easy to interchange a K2 and F4 into any combination of the two in memory.

The j7 and J9 used to be J8 and J9 a few years back. The thing about the J7 and J9 is that the J7 is reverse flow and J9 is peak flow. Some of the VA routes are the same way in that sense (28F, 7H, 8S).

[WayneNYC]

That's one of those odd things I've never liked about WMATA, and they don't seem consistent in the usage. 

Why a J7 AND a J9 for such a minor deviation, but the 5A is the same whether it serves Herndon Monroe or Tysons Westpark or both.

And letter-number combos don't have any general purpose in real life.  Whereas someone remembers that the 12 bus is the one they want cause that's the date of their birthday, it's easy to interchange a K2 and F4 into any combination of the two in memory.

The j7 and J9 used to be J8 and J9 a few years back. The thing about the J7 and J9 is that the J7 is reverse flow and J9 is peak flow. Some of the VA routes are the same way in that sense (28F, 7H, 8S).

What he's getting at is that routes like this and even the Z11 and Z13 makes little sense to be identified as two separate routes.  In any other system routes like the J7 and J9 or Z11 and Z13 would be one route.  I can't think of any reason a route number should change based on the flow of peak traffic.

[Perry]

I like the concept that Wayne had of just doing it NJT or LACMTA style.  Just start at 1 and go to the end whether it's 300 or 900.  You can then even classify express routes as a category, say no matter where it ran from it be numbered in the 700's, anything that you could classify as a circulator or feeder could be another series, etc. 

From there, you could add a letter suffix if you had to, X, A, Z, whatever if it was really needed.

[btconet]

That's one of those odd things I've never liked about WMATA, and they don't seem consistent in the usage. 

Why a J7 AND a J9 for such a minor deviation, but the 5A is the same whether it serves Herndon Monroe or Tysons Westpark or both.

And letter-number combos don't have any general purpose in real life.  Whereas someone remembers that the 12 bus is the one they want cause that's the date of their birthday, it's easy to interchange a K2 and F4 into any combination of the two in memory.

The j7 and J9 used to be J8 and J9 a few years back. The thing about the J7 and J9 is that the J7 is reverse flow and J9 is peak flow. Some of the VA routes are the same way in that sense (28F, 7H, 8S).

What he's getting at is that routes like this and even the Z11 and Z13 makes little sense to be identified as two separate routes.  In any other system routes like the J7 and J9 or Z11 and Z13 would be one route.  I can't think of any reason a route number should change based on the flow of peak traffic.

That's just my thought.  Several examples come to mind - the W2/W3, the Y's, etc.  If I didn't know better, I'd swear WMATA was artificially inventing unique travel patterns and demands just to bulk up the "breadth" of their system, so that they can pride themselves on running "so many routes."

I may be off base about this, but I'd gather that most DC bus riders don't get very adventurous on the WMATA system.  They learn the few lines they truly need to get where they're going near home or work and stick to that since anything else is too intimidating.   Few who live in Laurel or Oxon Hill would dare to venture out to Montgomery Mall or Tysons Corner for pleasure even if they had nothing but time.  True that much of this would likely be due to geographic isolation, but I'm sure those wanting to make the journey would be more likely to be deterred by the prospect of getting hopelessly lost.

[Perry]

That's certainly what makes the Las Vegas system easy to get around: 100's are north/south and 200's are east/west, 300's are Strip, 500's are BRT, 600's are routes we run for additional service, 700's are SilverStar.  Once you figure that out,  you're in good shape.  The 402 is an express route, but once we get other express routes, I wouldn't be suprised if we either change that numbering scheme completely or just add on to the 400's since the other ones in that series have gone by the wayside.

[WayneNYC]

Yeah - It's very odd.  Perry, I think you all have a logical route numbering system.  I also agree with Btco.net about WMATA's number of routes which is indeed misleading.

I think WMATA actually has more routes than NYCT.  To compare the two,  WMATA has about 1400 buses assigned to 9 divisions.  To anyone not familiar with NYC's bus operations.  NYCT has about 4600 buses assigned to 18 depots.  That's an average of 255 buses per depot, yet the TA has just 245 routes (local and express).  This does not include MTAB.