If WMATA got the money it needed to expand the bus routes and.........

[WMATAGMOAGH]

Tenleytown would not get bus service, nor would Arlington Cemetery.  Not sure if any other stations are skipped, but I don't think they are.

Couldn't Western at least shuttle a 30' Orion V or a DE37BRT between Friendship Heights and Tenleytown in this hypothetical? It at least doesn't cut Tenleytown out of the scheme of things and it'd be a straight run on Wisconsin that hurts nobody.

I wonder what the routing between Silver Spring and Union Station would be. That would be a bear and a half of a route with no major route linking the two.

As for George's post, the 66/68 to Pentagon and the hypothetical NH2 would make more than enough $en$e to run, but would the NH2 get people who right now are paying the $14 round-trip the water taxi between Alexandria and National Harbor? Would people go over for something slower but a fraction of the price?

If the even 30s ran 24 hour service, that could be the Tenleytown link.  If a station here and there is missed, I'm not sure it is a huge deal.

The Union Station to Silver Spring routing would not be a straight shot, but considering the hours of this service, I don't think it would be a huge problem.  Perhaps I'll map out everything in my head out on to Google someday soon.

I think the NH2 is in an official plan somewhere; they do intend to create a National Harbor to VA route of some sort. 

[NewFlyer9736BCT]

As for George's post, the 66/68 to Pentagon and the hypothetical NH2 would make more than enough $en$e to run, but would the NH2 get people who right now are paying the $14 round-trip the water taxi between Alexandria and National Harbor? Would people go over for something slower but a fraction of the price?

Even if this NH2 covers an express fare, it would be $6 at the most for a round trip. Plus, IIRC, water taxis are slooowww. The bus would be way faster.

[Tristan]

$6.20 - easy to forget that extra dime with a SmarTrip always at hand eh?

[Perry]

Union Station to Silver Spring?  Express?  I would just take North Cap. to Missouri to Georgia Ave.  Shouldn't take too long to do something like that in the overnight hours.

[WMATAGMOAGH]

Union Station to Silver Spring?  Express?  I would just take North Cap. to Missouri to Georgia Ave.  Shouldn't take too long to do something like that in the overnight hours.

But you skipped all the stations!  I'd probably do this:

From "inner" Columbus Circle bus stop (Union Station)
Continue Columbus Circle
Continue Mass Ave WB
R North Capitol Street
R M Street
NEW YORK AVENUE STATION
L 3rd Street
L Florida Avenue
R North Capitol Street
R Rhode Island Avenue
R Station Roadway
RHODE ISLAND AVENUE STATION
Continue Station Roadway
L Rhode Island Avenue
R North Capitol Street
R Michigan Avenue
R Bunker Hill Road
R 9th Street
BROOKLAND-CUA STATION
Continue 9th Street
Make U Turn
R Michigan Avenue
L South Dakota Avenue
L Galloway Street
FORT TOTTEN STATION
Continue 1st Street
L Riggs Road
R North Capitol Street
L Blair Road
R Cedar Street
L Station Roadway
TAKOMA STATION
Continue Station Roadway
L Eastern Avenue
Continue Takoma Avenue
L Fenton Street
L Burlington Avenue
X Georgia Avenue, Continue EW Highway
R Colesville Road
R Wayne Avenue
R Station Roadway
SILVER SPRING METRO

The reverse would be nearly identical.

10th Street, NE is a more direct way from Rhode Island Ave to Brookland, but I doubt the people living there would want buses going down their street during the overnight hours.  Additionally, I'm not so sure that the Takoma to Silver Spring routing fully avoids residential streets.  Another option there would be for buses to double back to Blair Road, and take Blair to Eastern to Georgia.

[Perry]

That's why I asked if it was express.  If it wasn't, then yeah your routing, but express would be the other way.

[WMATAGMOAGH]

That's why I asked if it was express.  If it wasn't, then yeah your routing, but express would be the other way.

Seeing as the idea is to provide buses in lieu of Metrorail service overnight, I doubt an express bus would really be practical or heavily utilized.

[jbgroup1]

Union Station to Silver Spring?  Express?  I would just take North Cap. to Missouri to Georgia Ave.  Shouldn't take too long to do something like that in the overnight hours.

But you skipped all the stations!  I'd probably do this:

From "inner" Columbus Circle bus stop (Union Station)
Continue Columbus Circle
Continue Mass Ave WB
R North Capitol Street...[Cut to prevent a long Quote(see above)]...SILVER SPRING METRO


The reverse would be nearly identical.

10th Street, NE is a more direct way from Rhode Island Ave to Brookland, but I doubt the people living there would want buses going down their street during the overnight hours.  Additionally, I'm not so sure that the Takoma to Silver Spring routing fully avoids residential streets.  Another option there would be for buses to double back to Blair Road, and take Blair to Eastern to Georgia.

This is a better alternative:

From "inner" Columbus Circle bus stop (Union Station)
Continue Columbus Circle
Continue Mass Ave NE WB
R North Capitol Street
R H Street NE
L 6th Street NE
L Florida Avenue NE
NEW YORK AVENUE STATION
Continue Florida Avenue NE
R Eckington St NE
R R St NE
L 3rd St NE
R T St NE
L 4th St NE
R Rhode Island Avenue NE
RHODE ISLAND AVENUE STATION
Continue Rhode Island Avenue NE
L 12th St NE
L Monroe St NE
R 9th Street NE(Brookland-CUA Station RDWY)
BROOKLAND-CUA STATION
R Bunker Hill Road NE
R Michigan Avenue NE
L 13th St-Sargent Road NE
L South Dakota Avenue NE
L Galloway Street NE
FORT TOTTEN STATION
Continue to 1st Pl NE
L Riggs Road NE-Missouri Ave NW
R 3rd St NW
L Blair Rd NW
L Butternut St NW
R 4th St NW
R Cedar Street NW
L Station Roadway
TAKOMA STATION
Continue Station Roadway
L Eastern Avenue NW
Continue Takoma Avenue
L Fenton Street
L Wayne Avenue
SILVER SPRING METRO

This way would be more direct.  12th Street between RI Ave Sta. and Brookland is a better alternative to 10th St.  The Takoma to Silver Spring routing goes mostly through Montgomery College and few residential streets. 

The bus would not have to go in to RI Ave Sta. or any other station because there are or could be stops near the station entrances and there would be no need to transfer to any bus or rail.  The stations that have their roadways served are for buses to continue on their way to the next station.

edited for spelling and to add two streets I missed

[WMATAGMOAGH]

Some of those streets you chose are residential.  I don't think buses should be going down residential streets at 3 AM.

Bus stops at the stations are easy to recognize, easy to locate, and are able to be well lit.  The same cannot be said for "nearby locations".

[Perry]

I don't know, it may be more practical to run some that don't stop at every station.  There may be more people headed to Silver Spring from Union Station than to say, Takoma. 

[WMATAGMOAGH]

I don't know, it may be more practical to run some that don't stop at every station.  There may be more people headed to Silver Spring from Union Station than to say, Takoma. 

This raises an interesting question in my mind.  Should WMATA ever create an overnight bustitution for its rail services, should they serve all stations, most stations, some stations, major stations, and should there be expresses since a trip from Metro Center to Shady Grove is pretty long.  I think if such a bus service was popular enough, express routes could be implemented, but I'm not sure it would be feasible off the bat.

[jbgroup1]

I don't know, it may be more practical to run some that don't stop at every station.  There may be more people headed to Silver Spring from Union Station than to say, Takoma. 

The buses should serve every station just not run on every station roadway.  There is no reason I see that a bus needs to go into a station when there is no point of transfer. 

I would have the bus run from Metro Center to Silver Spring and skip Judiciary Square and Union Station and passing one block from Gallery Place.

Some of those streets you chose are residential.  I don't think buses should be going down residential streets at 3 AM.

Bus stops at the stations are easy to recognize, easy to locate, and are able to be well lit.  The same cannot be said for "nearby locations".

Most of the residential streets listed are arterial streets and some at one time had buses traveling on them up to 3:00am. 

6th street NE is residential but arterial
The streets mentioned in Eckington have residences but are also close to an industrial area and rail yard
12th street NE is mostly commercial with some residences on it
13th street-Sargent Road NE is residential but arterial
3rd street NW could be changed to the arterial North Capitol street-Blair road but both are residential
The streets between Takoma and Silver Spring are mostly through Mont. College and a business district

[Tritransit Area]

Reading these posts, I'm starting to see the fatal flaws of having the overnight Metrorail service "bustituted".  There's so much emphasis on making sure that the stations are served that we seem to forget that a lot of people, particularly those who would rely on such a service to go out to the suburban areas, don't necessarily live within a short walking distance of the stations.  Many (if not most) transfer to buses that would likely not be running.  This can be the case with traffic generators that would be open those hours of the night, but aren't next door to train stations either.

I also agree that it's not necessary to have the buses go into every station, unless there are timed transfer opportunities with other routes (e.g., a "Red Line OWL" pulls into Fort Totton at 3:24 AM, for connections to the 3:30 K6).

Wouldn't it be a better idea to have overnight bus routes that are based off of the lines, but serve other nearby traffic generators along the way that may not be served by a route that warrants overnight service?  This would, of course, be in addition to local Metrobus routes that could sustain overnight service. 

[Tristan]

Brandon, I understand your comment and, theoretically, that is the way to go, but that ... fractures the amount of people who need this service so you end up with 20 routes each carrying 3 people, which is why the late-night bus service failed in the first place (low ridership).  At least providing owl bustitution puts people in a cab's shot of their dwellings, or maybe certain routes can be extended based on the arrival of the bustitutes.

I also don't think it would be necessarily prudent to bother with serving subway stations unless transfer opportunities exist or there happens to be no other suitable area.  Think about it: people don't live at the stations, they live near the stations.

[Sand Box John]

Stumbled upon a document this morning as I was browsing WMATA new web site:

Core Capacity Study (2002) (387 KB PDF file). The document is dated  12 20 2001 internal creation date is 05 03 2006.

There are some goodies in it that are related to this thread. text on page 4, tables on pages 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11.

Oren,

Remember the discussion we had on about the possibility of installing a pocket track east of  Federal Center SW some time back on either Subtalk or Subchat? In the document mentioned above, WMATA plans to put one between Eastern Market and Potomac Avenue. (Table page 8 ). I think their reasoning for putting a pocket track there is to replace the pocket track in D&G junction that will be reconfigured for a yard lead into a future yard and maintenance facility to be located on the Benning PEPCO power plant property.