The Jury's In: The DE42/62LFAs-Love Em' or Hate Em'?

[MetroLinerXLZ]

Montigue, I think you're way short on your pricetag but I don't have real numbers to back it up.  That full roof cap alone looks like $15k in my mind...but I'll research it.

Like I stated, it could be more or less. Even I didn't have the solid numbers when I came up with the estimate. I was taking a wild guess at it.

The research is definitely well needed though. Perhaps I should do a little digging myself...

And azn, in response to your first message, point well taken. Image is something to consider in a bus purchase. However, the look of a bus (now and in the future) is a non-issue if service isn't getting as good as those buses look. The main image people look are looking at is the 10:57a 23A bus arriving at Ballston station on time (give or take a few minutes).

[Tristan]

And if they don't target their service expansions and fancy buses somewhat simultaneously, the fancy bus effect won't exist because the fancy buses won't be considered fancy too much longer.

[MetroLinerXLZ]

When you think of it, why is it that most cities in the south have turned to Gillig (sans a few major cities like Atlanta and Miami) for their recent purchases? Because the people in those areas really don't give a crap about how good the bus looks.

The only thing that they're concerned about is the bus running and getting to where they're going in reasonable time. What you can basically take from this is that in the south, it's more about the function (and the cost, for damn sure) than it is the form. And if it means that boring ass shoeboxes do the trick, so be it.

And that's where most people here (me included) think that these hybrids aren't worth the money spent on them. They look all good and fancy and futuristic, but where is the function at?!? And most of all, how much did it cost to get it? Why didn't they look at any other practical alternatives (like the LFRs) to getting the LFAs? And when am I going to actually see some "new and improved" service?!?!

[OrionFlyer]

I personally like the style. They really are an eye catcher.

[Perry]

The LFA's just look really clunky.  I prefer the LFR's and I love the DE41LFR's and C40LFR's we have in Vegas.  Unfortunately due to the fact that nobody really has any money flowing for additional bus purchases, we won't have any new buses coming through here for awhile.  We did acquire two C40LFR's that were supposed to go to the City of Las Vegas, but since they do not operate the City Ride anymore, we have them.  Kind of strange to see a gold bus running around with a blue City Ride CNG tank...I almost ran off the road taking a double-take looking at it the other day.

[aznboy4305]

When you think of it, why is it that most cities in the south have turned to Gillig (sans a few major cities like Atlanta and Miami) for their recent purchases? Because the people in those areas really don't give a crap about how good the bus looks.

Um no...systems turn to Gillig because they are often the lowest bidder. They can deliver in a very timely and reliable fashion and they are very customer service oriented.

Smaller cities, especially those with more financial constraints often try to get the most bang for the buck. Gilligs simply beat out the competition product quality (for what you're paying), price, customer service, and delivery timeliness, which is why they're most popular in smaller cities.

And that's where most people here (me included) think that these hybrids aren't worth the money spent on them. They look all good and fancy and futuristic, but where is the function at?!?

The functional benefits of hybrids? They use less fuel.

Not worth it? Lets assume a hybrid gets one more mpg than a conventional diesel bus. Multiply that by the number of hybrids in your fleet. Multiply that by at least 12 hours on the road per day per bus. Multiply that by 365 days per year. Multiply that by 12 years.

Take inflation for 12 years as well as rising diesel prices. So not only the price of diesel itself is going to go up, but the value of your dollar is going to go down. If your extra investment in a hybrid was made in full cash today, what you spent today to buy yourself that benefit for the next 12 years is locked in in 2009 cash worth. That extra 1mpg might make a big difference in the long run.

[MetroLinerXLZ]

Um no...systems turn to Gillig because they are often the lowest bidder. They can deliver in a very timely and reliable fashion and they are very customer service oriented.

Smaller cities, especially those with more financial constraints often try to get the most bang for the buck. Gilligs simply beat out the competition product quality (for what you're paying), price, customer service, and delivery timeliness, which is why they're most popular in smaller cities.

Now I did mention cost plays a factor when I said (quoting myself):

The only thing that they're concerned about is the bus running and getting to where they're going in reasonable time. What you can basically take from this is that in the south, it's more about the function (and the cost, for damn sure) than it is the form. And if it means that boring ass shoeboxes do the trick, so be it.

And it's not necessarily tight budget constraints that dictate this. Keep in mind that there are quite a lot of "politically red" areas in the south (AWW DAMN, here HE go wit' da Souf again) that are doing well, yet aren't so happy to provide transit services. Chesterfield County (right down the street from me) is a prime example of this.

The functional benefits of hybrids? They use less fuel.

OK, how about using something that doesn't require the use of diesel fuel. CNG perhaps?!? I mean, in a country where everyone is going "green" and is getting tired of using foreign oil to power their cars, I think we'd be, ya know, trying to rid ourselves of that dependence. IMO, diesel hybrids ain't cutting it. As I stated previously, they're still consuming diesel fuel, and there's still the issue of dead/dying batteries, which still have to be disposed of. What, we're supposed to dispose of them things Yucca Mountain style??

Now on the other hand, I will agree with locking in fuel prices. IF WMATA has some sort of contract with the local governments or some oil company that allows them to purchase diesel fuel at around $3-4/per gallon for the next few years or so, then you do have a return in the investment. GRTC (for example) has a contract with the City of Richmond that locks their fuel prices in a $2-3/per gallon. It has been an effective tool in that it has (almost) stopped some possible service cuts and fare increases. So I do see where you're coming from on that end.

[btconet]

Personally, I think the lines of an LFR are more pleasing than the heavy look of an LFA, but that's just me.

When I look at an LFA, it seems to more belong to a BRT type of service than conventional bus service.  One can make the argument that they're using it for that purpose on routes like the S9, but calling the S9 "BRT" to me is like calling the PATH train "Commuter Rail."

Still, you'll see the LFA's rolling around on lines that are very transit dependent, and which will not attract any choice riders based on where they go, how often they stop, etc...

On the surface, this would appear illogical, but when one considers an often overlooked factor, there MAY be a method to the madness.  What is this factor? Title VI.

In getting Fed Funds, WMATA has to comply with Title VI regulations that essentially dicate that all routes are created equal.  Included with this Title VI compliance are provisions that an agency can't just stick its older equipment in low income and minority areas while predominately non-minority, higher income areas are all riding the newer equipment.  Failure to show complaince can lead to fines and loss of funding.

Thus, it MAY be that WMATA had to essentially purchase twice the number of LFAs it wanted to ensure it could demonstrate equal treatment in the eyes of the law.  Yes, it's not as if the S9 doesn't visit areas whose residents don't exactly have it made, but statistically, it probably ranks as far more affluent than the P6 or A2.

Much of this is conjecture on my part, but it could offer an explanation as to why so many, and why so meandering an allotment.

[novabusorionfan]

Hopefully the DE42LFA replaces all 1990-1994 Flixble Metro and hopefully the DE62LFA replaces all the 1995 American Ikarus/NABI 436, which they are doing currently now. 


Also the DE42LFA and DE62LFA look nice but I still prefer NOVABus LFS, LFSA and LFX and Orion VII NG anyday over them anyday.

[79MetroExtraMD]

Personally, I think the lines of an LFR are more pleasing than the heavy look of an LFA, but that's just me.

When I look at an LFA, it seems to more belong to a BRT type of service than conventional bus service.  One can make the argument that they're using it for that purpose on routes like the S9, but calling the S9 "BRT" to me is like calling the PATH train "Commuter Rail."

Still, you'll see the LFA's rolling around on lines that are very transit dependent, and which will not attract any choice riders based on where they go, how often they stop, etc...

On the surface, this would appear illogical, but when one considers an often overlooked factor, there MAY be a method to the madness.  What is this factor? Title VI.

In getting Fed Funds, WMATA has to comply with Title VI regulations that essentially dicate that all routes are created equal.  Included with this Title VI compliance are provisions that an agency can't just stick its older equipment in low income and minority areas while predominately non-minority, higher income areas are all riding the newer equipment.  Failure to show complaince can lead to fines and loss of funding.

Thus, it MAY be that WMATA had to essentially purchase twice the number of LFAs it wanted to ensure it could demonstrate equal treatment in the eyes of the law.  Yes, it's not as if the S9 doesn't visit areas whose residents don't exactly have it made, but statistically, it probably ranks as far more affluent than the P6 or A2.

Much of this is conjecture on my part, but it could offer an explanation as to why so many, and why so meandering an allotment.

As for PATH, they kinda are a commuter rail system. Instead of being a sort of subway system, it's kinda regarded as a real railroad.

Even with BRT, it's still the glorified rail on wheels theory.

[WayneNYC]

As for PATH, they kinda are a commuter rail system. Instead of being a sort of subway system, it's kinda regarded as a real railroad.

Even with BRT, it's still the glorified rail on wheels theory.

PATH is called commuter rail pretty much because it operates between New York City limits and beyond.  While it's very much a subway system, PATH is still subject to FRA regulations since it shared trackage with Penn RR.  I think at least one crossover still exists.  PATH (and Staten Island Railway) must have some waiver that permits their trains to not have the high centered headlight.

[Scrabbleship]

I'm going to buck the trend and say that I like the LFA's since they put a totally different spin on an product that has been a bit done to death. Love or hate New Flyers, at least WMATA has shaken things up with their orders and has made it somewhat fun. I think someone in Chicago, Boston, Philly, or Milwaukee would swap their large numbers of plain D40LF's for DC's variety pack if you also toss FFX and Ride On in there. At least the LFA's don't require windshield wipers for the side front windows.

As for equal treatment, I would think the lower half of the 30's and much of any Northern route would socioeconomically cancel out the S9, upper half of the 30's, etc. etc. Under the same idea, it can be argued that the "good" parts of DC were a little due since the 60-BRT's see the majority of their service in some of the most disadvantaged areas of DC.

[Annex4421]

I agree too scrabbleship on the WMATA shaken things up with they're fleet, its good to see something different as long as they don't go overboard with it. But I think some of us agree that there is rarely a "Good" part of DC as part as where the buses run. If I had to guess you probably meant them running in the "Hood". But it really doesn't matter where they run they get tagged up anyway just my opinion, but anyways I agree it makes it somewhat fun.

[LandoverDivision]

Let's say if I was to side with the people who think they are a waste. What can we do now? They're already here and WMATA has already wasted the money so there wasn't anything we could do before and there isn't anything we could do about it now so we're going to have to deal with it one way or another. They're gonna be here for the long run.

[Annex4421]

Basicly the styles of WMATA's buses change with every other bus order so after the next LFA order then WMATA may order XDE40s of go back to the LF/LFR style or choose something else.