The Jury's In: The DE42/62LFAs-Love Em' or Hate Em'?

[MetroLinerXLZ]

OK folks, I've went ahead and created this poll to see how much everyone likes/loves these DE42/62LFAs. I've seen a LOT of heated debate on here about them, so I wanted to probe into the gravity of everyone's attitudes towards these buses. A little extra feedback is welcome, but I ask that we don't turn this into a flame-out. Just keep it civil people. If you disagree with someone, please use intelligent dissent.


IMHO, I do agree with most people here; I do think that these buses were an unnecessary purchase, just as I think that the purchase of the C40LFRs was unnecessary especially seeing that the intended purpose of those buses (C40LFRs) slated for the 79 line were defeated when they were put on LOCAL lines. In this instance with these hybrids, I think that they defeated the purpose of trying to save money. What's the point of trying to save money you don't have if you spend it all trying to pull some PR stunt that dosen't work? If the buses aren't still drawing the passengers onboard, it's pointless having them in the first place.
                                                       
And for the record, I dislike hybrid buses period (don't give a damn who makes em'). Yeah, I do snap pics of them, I audio-record them, and I make videos of them. Other than that, I could care less about them. I dislike them due to the fact that they STILL use (foreign) oil and batteries that do die out and have to be disposed of some way, some how. That's why I'm leaning more towards the CNG approach than hybrids. It's cleaner, it doesn't use foreign oil, and it's highly abundant. If anything, I'd like to see some CNG Hybrids hit the road. Until then, my viewpoint on hybrids is that they cause more problems than they solve.

[orionvii2680]

Oh boy this might start another argument but,I like the look and all but I'm kinda disappointed the buses are getting quieter and cheaper....i mean, i pushed the window of a LFA the other day and it straight dented in like a hybrid car (prius)...so i don't know just my opinion,Also nice to see you back Mr.Montigue.

[Annex4421]

If I can add I just hope WMATA doesn't order too many of them. Thats all

[WES]

I don't hate them, but I would rather would have them buy DE41LFRs.  With the budget problems WMATA is having, why would they spend excess money on wasted materials when having a DE41LFR would have been suitable, saved money which would have gone to either saving some routes, saving jobs or applied to other things.

I do agree that this should be civil, but if someone can't then those posts will be deleted automatically.  As MetroLinerXLZ mentioned this should be civil, even minded discussion.  If you aren't grown up enough to  post here then don't.

[Annex4421]

Now I'm actually gunning for DE41LFRs now thanks WES.

[Tristan]

Oh boy this might start another argument but,I like the look and all but I'm kinda disappointed the buses are getting quieter and cheaper....i mean, i pushed the window of a LFA the other day and it straight dented in like a hybrid car (prius)...so i don't know just my opinion,Also nice to see you back Mr.Montigue.

actually that's because WMATA has added an inner plexiglass panel for the hoodlums to scratch up.  What you're pushing on is that cheap, easily replaceable plexi panel...rest assures that there is solid glass behind it.  AFAIK, all of WMATA's frameless windows are configured this way.

[MetroLinerXLZ]

Oh boy this might start another argument but,I like the look and all but I'm kinda disappointed the buses are getting quieter and cheaper....i mean, i pushed the window of a LFA the other day and it straight dented in like a hybrid car (prius)...so i don't know just my opinion,Also nice to see you back Mr.Montigue.

And nice to see all y'all here too. I might not post often here, but I do stop by often.

[MetroLinerXLZ]

I don't hate them, but I would rather would have them buy DE41LFRs.  With the budget problems WMATA is having, why would they spend excess money on wasted materials when having a DE41LFR would have been suitable, saved money which would have gone to either saving some routes, saving jobs or applied to other things.

I do agree that this should be civil, but if someone can't then those posts will be deleted automatically.  As MetroLinerXLZ mentioned this should be civil, even minded discussion.  If you aren't grown up enough to  post here then don't.

If WMATA had taken that approach (getting DE41LFRs instead), there would be none of the heated discussion I've seen here. Even I would've had a more positive approach towards em'.

[orionvii2680]

So realy how much more is Wmata paying NFI for the name LFA?

[MetroLinerXLZ]

So realy how much more is Wmata paying NFI for the name LFA?

I estimate at least about $17,000 when it comes to adding all of that extra stuff onto that D40LF (which is what it really is when you strip it naked). This includes the cost of:

-The front end cap and windshield pieces
-Raised roof pieces
-Modified exhaust pipe/end tip
-Frameless windows (and the special vandal-friendly plexiglass pieces within them)
-Rear wheel covers
-Extending the bus length by 2 feet

It might be more than my estimate, or quite a bit less. Whatever the extras come up to, multiply that times the amount of  buses in the order and you'll see the total amount spent on the extras for that order. Keep in mind that this s--t ain't Standard configuration; that's an optional  D40LF configuration.

Time to do your homework.....

[aznboy4305]

I think it is a wise investment, only if it didn't come at a sacrifice of service, which I highly doubt. A bus is a 12 year investment, one of your primary marketing and advertisement tools. Also, in this industry, you need to think and plan WELL ahead of your time. You need to think about what can you possibly buy today and which one of your options will age the best, be least likely to repel, and most likely to attract riders for these twelve years. By no means should it be used for a gimmick or any type of "This is your all new and improved [insert TA]!". Its strictly curb appeal and the ability for each option to maintain its curb appeal for the lifespan of the vehicle, which translates into an advertisement tool, which translates into long-term ridership base replenishment.

Also, $17,000 may sound a lot to the average Joe. But consider the fact that a typical 40' hybrid transit bus runs upwards of half a million dollars apiece, a 60' hybrid runs of over 3/4 of a million dollars apiece. A $17,000 "option" for one vehicle of this value is quite negligible and really is no more than a farebox upgrade and a bike rack. Take that $17,000 you pay today, that $17,000 will decrease in dollar value while you retain the curb appeal value you purchase with it for 12 years.

Or in other words...

You can buy a 2009 Civic today for $10,000 (2009 standard price), or you can buy a redesigned 2015 Civic today for $15,000 (2009 "upgrade" price). Or you can buy a 2015 Civic in 2015 for $20,000 (2015 standard price). You keep the car for 12 years and you want the most overall value of your car for those 12 years for the least money invested. The value of the 2009 Civic drops substantially in 2015 when the redesigned model becomes the new base standard. If you wait until 2015 to get the redesign so you can pay the "base" price for it instead of paying a "premium" to get it in 2009, you might end up paying more in 2015 due to inflation. So really, what is the best option of you want to get the most "bang for the buck"?

The more I was typing the last paragraph the more I realized it had less and less to do with the LFAs, but it needs to be taken into consideration that the problem isn't as simple as "x is cheaper than y right now so x is the better option!". You really have to take into account what you're really getting for your investment for its entire lifespan.

You buy a bus, you want something that can attract and can CONTINUE to attract for 12 years. Forecast how that bus's attraction and image benefits will lay out over 12 years; should you get something that is futuristic now and will look fairly new/good when it is retired? Or something that looks fairly new/good now and will look like obsolete and repelling when it is retired?

Forecast the value of your dollar over those 12 years; do you spend more by getting a fairly new/good looking bus in the future, or by getting a futuristic looking bus today that will look fairly new/good in the future?

[WayneNYC]

I don't care for LFA styling at all.  At best, I can tolerate it.  I wish WMATA would've gotten more DE40LF, but I would've been OK with LFRs too.  This is coming from both my busfan side and practical side. 

My biggest issues with the LFA is that the extra cost gets you no added function over a standard LF/LFR, add to the footprint, again with no added benefit, heavier and of course more expensive.  In this day and age of widespread budget cuts, budget deficits, service cuts, fare hikes, layoffs etc. - I think it's irresponsible to spend extra dollars to get curved buses that again, has no added benefit over the LF/LFR. 

That's my two cents.

[79MetroExtraMD]

I don't care for LFA styling at all.  At best, I can tolerate it.  I wish WMATA would've gotten more DE40LF, but I would've been OK with LFRs too.  This is coming from both my busfan side and practical side. 

My biggest issues with the LFA is that the extra cost gets you no added function over a standard LF/LFR, add to the footprint, again with no added benefit, heavier and of course more expensive.  In this day and age of widespread budget cuts, budget deficits, service cuts, fare hikes, layoffs etc. - I think it's irresponsible to spend extra dollars to get curved buses that again, has no added benefit over the LF/LFR. 

That's my two cents.

The US bus manufacturers are trying to compete with the European ones in adopting that Euro style look to their buses. The Xcelsior boasts a pleasing look as well as weight reductions and other fuel saving features, plus from what I've seen in the specs, it's supposed to have easier access to components and repositioning of different components. But yea, as Ray said before the marketing thing plays a role with it as well. But hey, if you get a good deal on buses, who wouldn't take it.

[aznboy4305]

As far as the design itself, I kind of like the LFA. I don't care much for the fact that it adds two feet of useless overhang (I don't think it adds to the wheelbase), or the rear wheel covers.

I like the LFR as well, but ONLY if it is done right. It just doesn't look good at all to me if you have LFR front and rear caps slapped onto a late 1980s box body with non-frameless windows and black doors. However if you throw in frameless windows and a flowing paint job, it'll like many times better. Thus why I like the C40LFRs and don't like the D40LFRs at all.

[Tristan]

Montigue, I think you're way short on your pricetag but I don't have real numbers to back it up.  That full roof cap alone looks like $15k in my mind...but I'll research it.