New Flyers for WMATA & Connector

[Tristan]

ir0, the Gillig BRT costs something around $17,000 more than a standard Gillig...and the "A" in LFA is a lot more complicated than Gillig's BRT package, with the roofline and 2 feet of extra space.  I'm speculating but wouldn't be surprised to find it more in the neighborhood of $50,000 extra.  Multiply that by 6 and you have an extra DASH (that is, utilitarian but reliable) bus... look at how many LFAs WMATA is getting at that price premium, then look at how many more standard buses they could have gotten, and you see why some of us are up in arms about it.  Not to mention the excess weight of the extra plastic and how much better the same powertrain would do in something like an LFR, from a fuel economy perspective.

I am not the biggest fan of its looks -- honestly I think it looks like someone at New Flyer went to Europe and brought back every curve they could find to throw on this thing -- but it's the excess that bothers me, especially in this economy.  And, ridership is still dropping!  Not that I blame that squarely on Catoe, but.......we were looking for gains.

[ir0cq09]

I agree 100% with you tristan. And Yeah its not 100% catoe's fault but still, its a complete waste, and ugly! Just my 2 cents.

[Antozilla]

What is the difference between an A and an R

[Annex4421]

Ok Fairfax Connector is getting D40LFRs, why is they getting possessed with Flyers also, perhaps they will replace the RTS.

[LandoverDivision]

ir0, the Gillig BRT costs something around $17,000 more than a standard Gillig...and the "A" in LFA is a lot more complicated than Gillig's BRT package, with the roofline and 2 feet of extra space.  I'm speculating but wouldn't be surprised to find it more in the neighborhood of $50,000 extra.  Multiply that by 6 and you have an extra DASH (that is, utilitarian but reliable) bus... look at how many LFAs WMATA is getting at that price premium, then look at how many more standard buses they could have gotten, and you see why some of us are up in arms about it.  Not to mention the excess weight of the extra plastic and how much better the same powertrain would do in something like an LFR, from a fuel economy perspective.

I am not the biggest fan of its looks -- honestly I think it looks like someone at New Flyer went to Europe and brought back every curve they could find to throw on this thing -- but it's the excess that bothers me, especially in this economy.  And, ridership is still dropping!  Not that I blame that squarely on Catoe, but.......we were looking for gains.

Yup true but like I said before, WMATA got money like that. If it was a prolem for them do you think they would've started the order to begin with? We don't make the call here. I agree with you 100% Tristan especially for more gains here in PG, but we aren't the ones making the calls. If DCATZ was WMATA yeah we'd see a little more progress of what we really want them to get. And btw people really seem to like the LFAs. Look at it from a regular rider's POV, not from your own busfanning knowledge and stuff. People look at the BRTs as very appealing buses. I have heard not 1 complaint about them.

[Annex4421]

What is the difference between an A and an R

The R is for Restyled and the A stands for Advance (I don't know why).

[mrpete]

While the apparent rationale for the 2' longer wheelbase of the NABI & New Flyer BRT's is to allow an additional row of seats, what's the trade off between the marginal additional revenue increase of the 4 seats versus the operating expense "penalty" of reduced fuel mileage due to the extra weight, plus the reduced "versatility" of the bus in route assignments due the extra length? Also those big windshields cost money to make and replace and, I would think, certainly increase the heatload on the HVAC in hot weather, thereby impacting fuel economy.

If the prototype specs of the Xcelsior pan out, that extra seat row will be accommodated in a standard 40' length with a claimed weight reduction from the use of fiberglass side panels. Also, just speculating, that extra room will be due to some electrical/electronic components being relocated to the roof where the "strealined" fairing could provide some protection for that equipment. While a bus is a bus, apperance does have some value. Case in point: Does anyone find Dayton and SF Muni's ETBs attractive with all that "Borg-like" equipment on the roof? Cheaper without fairings certainly and worth perhaps a few minutes less maintanence time, but...what trade-offs are worth making?

[WayneNYC]

ir0, the Gillig BRT costs something around $17,000 more than a standard Gillig...and the "A" in LFA is a lot more complicated than Gillig's BRT package, with the roofline and 2 feet of extra space.  I'm speculating but wouldn't be surprised to find it more in the neighborhood of $50,000 extra.  Multiply that by 6 and you have an extra DASH (that is, utilitarian but reliable) bus... look at how many LFAs WMATA is getting at that price premium, then look at how many more standard buses they could have gotten, and you see why some of us are up in arms about it.  Not to mention the excess weight of the extra plastic and how much better the same powertrain would do in something like an LFR, from a fuel economy perspective.

I am not the biggest fan of its looks -- honestly I think it looks like someone at New Flyer went to Europe and brought back every curve they could find to throw on this thing -- but it's the excess that bothers me, especially in this economy.  And, ridership is still dropping!  Not that I blame that squarely on Catoe, but.......we were looking for gains.

Yup true but like I said before, WMATA got money like that. If it was a prolem for them do you think they would've started the order to begin with? We don't make the call here. I agree with you 100% Tristan especially for more gains here in PG, but we aren't the ones making the calls. If DCATZ was WMATA yeah we'd see a little more progress of what we really want them to get. And btw people really seem to like the LFAs. Look at it from a regular rider's POV, not from your own busfanning knowledge and stuff. People look at the BRTs as very appealing buses. I have heard not 1 complaint about them.

No, WMATA doesn't have money like that.  In fact, WMATA doesn't even have a dedicated funding source.  I'm not a conservative, but in my opinion, I think it's fiscally irresponsible to spend the extra $$$ for the LFA.  I like seeing a diverse fleet like the next busfan, but this goes beyond the hobby.  It's about getting the most bang for the buck in these tough economic times.  There's offers absolutely no functional benefit, adds weight and increases the footprint of the vehicle over a standard LF/LFR.  Bottom line is that it's a waste for money (and plastic).

Also guys - It's six wheels.

[Transport]

Ok Fairfax Connector is getting D40LFRs, why is they getting possessed with Flyers also, perhaps they will replace the RTS.

I believe FX Connector is retiring some of the older Orion Vs (older among the Orion Vs)and keeping their RTS fleet.  A fleet dance was just completed in FFX this past weekend.  I saw several buses coming and going all over the place NIS.

[orionvii2680]

Oh dear lowd please don't retire the RtS's.I gotta get a video of them tomorrow.

[orionvii2680]

http://www.wmata.com/stimulus/project_details.cfm?P=Replacement%20of%20Oldest%20Buses

Hate to be the bearer of bad news.

[Scrabbleship]

http://www.wmata.com/stimulus/project_details.cfm?P=Replacement%20of%20Oldest%20Buses

Hate to be the bearer of bad news.

After having cut my transit teeth first on Gillig Phantoms that were one step from unsafe, then having gotten in hundreds if not thousands of rides on original run Orion VI's with the bondo roofs, way too few seats, and the true rear door, an LFA is like a breath of fresh air.

[Tritransit Area]

http://www.wmata.com/stimulus/project_details.cfm?P=Replacement%20of%20Oldest%20Buses

Hate to be the bearer of bad news.

Dammit, New Flyer!   You took out my [SEPTA] Neoplans, and now you are taking out my Flxibles!  Grrrrrrr.....I HATE NEW FLYER!

[end whiney crybaby busfan rant].

Well, more New Flyers for you to enjoy!  Funny how the bus pictured on that page isn't even a New Flyer! 

It's funny....the DC Area used to be my New Flyer escape when I had enough of them in Philadelphia.  Not anymore!  I'll be sad to see those Metro Es go, though .

[OrionFlyer]

I wonder if these new 48 are still going to be in the 6400s. These could have suburban seats too.

[Scrabbleship]

http://www.wmata.com/stimulus/project_details.cfm?P=Replacement%20of%20Oldest%20Buses

Hate to be the bearer of bad news.

Dammit, New Flyer!   You took out my [SEPTA] Neoplans, and now you are taking out my Flxibles!  Grrrrrrr.....I HATE NEW FLYER!

[end whiney crybaby busfan rant].

Well, more New Flyers for you to enjoy!  Funny how the bus pictured on that page isn't even a New Flyer! 

It's funny....the DC Area used to be my New Flyer escape when I had enough of them in Philadelphia.  Not anymore!  I'll be sad to see those Metro Es go, though .

I think the variations on one basic product that exists in the DC area is either a plus or something you can take solace in. I count 8 different variations of New Flyer products in service, 9 if you count the D40LFR suburbans separate, more if you put paint into the equation. I can think of only 4 at SEPTA (D40LF, older DE40LF, newer DE40LF, E40LFR). That has to be a little unique, yes?

At least we have the suburban TA's picking up the slack with some variation. Ride On has their Gilligs, ART has the NABIs, DASH is getting whatever they're getting soon, CUE has the Gillig BRT's. That has to make things a little interesting, yes?