A DE62LFA in the Express paint scheme?

[Annex4421]

Hybrids are pointless, is what he said...not artics.  He even said that getting 5-10 diesel suburban ARTICS would be better for the B30 and 5A.  Reading is fundamental :-)

The fuel efficiency and whatnot of hybrids comes from the battery's use in stop-and-go, local traffic.  They do not really make much difference on the highway where there is no braking and the engine would run the entire time.  Plus, they're just not that fast.

Gee thanks I diddn't noticed that. I was talking about the Hybrids being pointless have any of you rode any WMATA hybrids, and if hybrids are so pointless correct me if I'm wrong isn't DASH getting hyrbids or am I missreading info again?

[Tristan]

Yes, you are again misreading.

THE POINT IS (and I'm not shouting here, I'm just trying to make sure it is 100% clear): HYBRIDS WOULD NOT BE OF MUCH USE ON THE B30, 5A, OR OTHER HIGHWAY ROUTES BECAUSE OF THEIR LOWER SPEED AND LOSS OF FUEL ECONOMY BENEFITS AT SUSTAINED HIGH SPEEDS.

No one is saying hybrids are bad, no one is saying artics are not needed on the B30, the only thing that the original poster is saying (and he is correct) is that a hybrid bus isn't the best piece of equipment to put on a highway route, and that a diesel (or CNG, for that matter) articulated bus would work better.

[Annex4421]

Yes, you are again misreading.

THE POINT IS (and I'm not shouting here, I'm just trying to make sure it is 100% clear): HYBRIDS WOULD NOT BE OF MUCH USE ON THE B30, 5A, OR OTHER HIGHWAY ROUTES BECAUSE OF THEIR LOWER SPEED AND LOSS OF FUEL ECONOMY BENEFITS AT SUSTAINED HIGH SPEEDS.

No one is saying hybrids are bad, no one is saying artics are not needed on the B30, the only thing that the original poster is saying (and he is correct) is that a hybrid bus isn't the best piece of equipment to put on a highway route, and that a diesel (or CNG, for that matter) articulated bus would work better.

I get what you are saying about diesels and CNGs but I still don't think Hybrids are pointless for highway routes, I think Landover has highway routes and from what I hear the hybrids are well on them, but actions speak louder than words, and remember John Catoe is so whipped from Hybrids so basicly thats all WMATA is getting so far so thats what I meant by them not being pointless for anything. Though diesels or CNGs doesn't sound bad for the B30 either.

[Tristan]

*Sigh* I'm going to try this one final time, and if that doesn't work, you can have your opinion and think whatever you want to think.

The FUEL SAVINGS of a hybrid bus come from the most fuel-intensive use of the bus, and that is stop-and-go traffic.  The less stop-and-go there is, the less efficient hybrid buses are.  Now, let's say FOR EXAMPLE that Metro has nothing but hybrids -- then you would have no problem because you'd have no place that's better than any other place for hybrid buses. 

But buying hybrids because they save fuel and then sticking them on the highway, is sort of akin to buying an artic because it has more seats but then sticking it on the 9E.  It's just a waste of a resource that could be better used elsewhere.  That doesn't make the artic bad, that just means it could be more effective somewhere else.

For this reason, the original poster simply said it would be pointless to use a hybrid on such a route as the B30 - because there are much more effective places to use it.

[Annex4421]

Tristan I understood the 1st time and I understand now what you are saying.

[Tristan]

Does me saying "I'm not even going to address that comment" count as me addressing the comment?

[79MetroExtraMD]

Does me saying "I'm not even going to address that comment" count as me addressing the comment?

Quid pro pro.

[LandoverDivision]

Hybrids are pointless, is what he said...not artics.  He even said that getting 5-10 diesel suburban ARTICS would be better for the B30 and 5A.  Reading is fundamental :-)

The fuel efficiency and whatnot of hybrids comes from the battery's use in stop-and-go, local traffic.  They do not really make much difference on the highway where there is no braking and the engine would run the entire time.  Plus, they're just not that fast.

First of all how are hybrids pointless on the highway? There wouldn't be any point of building the bus to begin with. They're going to be on the highway anyways regardless. You're bascially saying building every bus is pointless and that every bus is pointless on the highway. It's a bus it's a vehicle duh it's going to do a lot of high speed travel just like any other normal vehicle in the world. And like Delonta said a hybrid on the B30 is an improvement  And DASH is getting Gillig hybrids anyways and what DASH routes travel on the highway again? AT3 and AT4 maybe?

[WayneNYC]

Hybrids are pointless, is what he said...not artics.  He even said that getting 5-10 diesel suburban ARTICS would be better for the B30 and 5A.  Reading is fundamental :-)

The fuel efficiency and whatnot of hybrids comes from the battery's use in stop-and-go, local traffic.  They do not really make much difference on the highway where there is no braking and the engine would run the entire time.  Plus, they're just not that fast.

First of all how are hybrids pointless on the highway? There wouldn't be any point of building the bus to begin with. They're going to be on the highway anyways regardless. You're bascially saying building every bus is pointless and that every bus is pointless on the highway. It's a bus it's a vehicle duh it's going to do a lot of high speed travel just like any other normal vehicle in the world. And like Delonta said a hybrid on the B30 is an improvement  And DASH is getting Gillig hybrids anyways and what DASH routes travel on the highway again? AT3 and AT4 maybe?

It's not that hybrids can't travel on highways or at high speeds.  The point he's making is based on the fact that the advantages of a hybrid vehicle (vs non-hybrid) takes place in frequent stop and go traffic.  Once a hybrid vehicle gets up to speed the advantage is gone.  That is...once it's at highway speed, there's very little (if any) difference between it and a straight diesel.  He's saying it's pointless on the B30 because nearly 100% of the route is on the highway at 55 plus MPH.

It's the same with hybrid cars.  Lookup any hybrid car and you'll see the EPA milage rating for city driving is very close to that of highway mileage.

So basically, one could argue that if a bus is going to dedicated to route such as the B30 that primarly operates at highway speeds with little or no stop and go action, the extra cost for the hybrid powertrain pretty much goes to waste.

[LandoverDivision]

Hybrids are pointless, is what he said...not artics.  He even said that getting 5-10 diesel suburban ARTICS would be better for the B30 and 5A.  Reading is fundamental :-)

The fuel efficiency and whatnot of hybrids comes from the battery's use in stop-and-go, local traffic.  They do not really make much difference on the highway where there is no braking and the engine would run the entire time.  Plus, they're just not that fast.

First of all how are hybrids pointless on the highway? There wouldn't be any point of building the bus to begin with. They're going to be on the highway anyways regardless. You're bascially saying building every bus is pointless and that every bus is pointless on the highway. It's a bus it's a vehicle duh it's going to do a lot of high speed travel just like any other normal vehicle in the world. And like Delonta said a hybrid on the B30 is an improvement  And DASH is getting Gillig hybrids anyways and what DASH routes travel on the highway again? AT3 and AT4 maybe?

It's not that hybrids can't travel on highways or at high speeds.  The point he's making is based on the fact that the advantages of a hybrid vehicle (vs non-hybrid) takes place in frequent stop and go traffic.  Once a hybrid vehicle gets up to speed the advantage is gone.  That is...once it's at highway speed, there's very little (if any) difference between it and a straight diesel.  He's saying it's pointless on the B30 because nearly 100% of the route is on the highway at 55 plus MPH.

It's the same with hybrid cars.  Lookup any hybrid car and you'll see the EPA milage rating for city driving is very close to that of highway mileage.

So basically, one could argue that if a bus is going to dedicated to route such as the B30 that primarly operates at highway speeds with little or no stop and go action, the extra cost for the hybrid powertrain pretty much goes to waste.

So much for that extra money. It's stupid though. Why would they make hybrids like that knwoing that it would be on the highway anyway? Wow.

[WayneNYC]

So much for that extra money. It's stupid though. Why would they make hybrids like that knwoing that it would be on the highway anyway? Wow.

I think hybrids are a good idea, but they're not the ideal setup for all situations.  The thing is they're cleaner.  An engine works it's hardest to get the vehicle moving from a dead stop.  That means it's also using the most fuel and more exhaust goes into the air.  The idea of a hybrid is that the electric motor does most of the work getting the vehicle up to speed. 

I guess it's eaiser to see with Toyota hybrid vehicles.  They take it a step further in that the gasoline engine completely shuts off at a complete stop.  So that mean no fuel is being used because the engine is off.  Once the vehicle accelerates, it's only the electric motor moving the car and then once it's up to speed the gasoline engine takes over.  So you have a zero-emissions electric motor as the power source in situations when the gasoline engine would be working hard and using more fuel.

Jumping back to the buses... This is probably why you won't see any over-the-road coaches with hybrid powertrains. 

[Tristan]

Thanks Wayne -- I'm glad someone could clear it up.

Piggybacking on Wayne's point on fuel economy ratings, I've actually seen where the econ rating is *lower* on highway miles than on city miles.

For reference, fuel economy ratings are given as two numbers - city mileage versus highway mileage (25/31, for example) - because vehicles, like any machine, work harder starting and stopping over and over again versus sustaining motion.  You ever push a heavy shopping cart?  Hard to get rolling, but once it's moving, it isn't so hard to keep it rolling.

[Tritransit Area]

Jumping back to the buses... This is probably why you won't see any over-the-road coaches with hybrid powertrains. 

Well...there are hybrid MCIs.  Houston got a batch of them, and NJT has some that they were testing.  Of course, hybrid over-the-road coaches likely won't be as popular as transit buses for the reasons that you stated.

[Annex4421]

Since the hybrids are "pointless" for the B30. The only thing I can think of is them going to the S9, or northern doing some 79 trips, or possibly West Ox.

[Tristan]

Or any other city route that needs artics...?