The economy must be bad

[79MetroExtraMD]

..when premium costs less than regular. A lot less.

[WayneNYC]

I'm thrilled that gasoline prices have come back to down, but the odd thing is that there's a big price difference between regular and midgrade/premium.

[NewFlyer9736BCT]

I'm thrilled that gasoline prices have come back to down, but the odd thing is that there's a big price difference between regular and midgrade/premium.

yeah...today near Lake Worth, FL I saw a station that sold regular for $1.99 per gallon...and how much was mid grade/premium???

$2.49 and $2.59 at the same station...I thought a 20 cent difference was large, but 50 cents is a LOT!

[Tristan]

I can see high-grade costing more with all the stuff they claim is there to protect or improve your performace, but I can't explain the midgrade stuff.

[WMATAGMOAGH]

I think I once saw an explanation but don't recall what it was.  I googled just now and one theory someone has out there is that as prices have gone up, people who used to buy premium and midgrade gas shift to regular because while their owner manuals reccommend premium or midgrade, regular gas will work as well, decreasing the demand for premium and midgrade and increasing the price.

My car can take regular but it is better to put in midgrade.  I used to only put in midgrade, but recently, I've alternated between the two or only do midgrade if the price seems low enough, so maybe there is some truth to the theory I found.

[WayneNYC]

Yes - In many cars that use premium you can use lower octane gasoline.  The keyword in the owner's manual isrecommended and required.  Most cars that need higher octane fuel have high compression engines (and high performance).  Usually it's those sold by the luxury brands.  In the past an engine that required premium fuel would knock and ping if lower octane fuel was used.  Over time this practice would damage the engine. 

Higher compression engines with suggested use of premium gasoline.

Engines have come a long way over the last couple of decades and nowadays the engine and fuel system management systems on most engines can detect the octane level of the fuel going through the system and make adjustments.   So now most high-compression, high performance engines can run on regular fuel.  The engine/fuel management detects the lower octane fuel and retards the spark accordingly to prevent harmful knocking.  This also reduces the performance a bit too, but it doesn't hurt the engine.   

Higher compression engines with required use of premium gasoline.

Very few engines fall into this category these days.  BMW is still one company and I think Mercedes-Benz, but I'm not sure.  In this case premium fuel is required and if the owners use lower octane fuel they risk having their warranty voided not to mentioned reduced performance and engine damage.

The vast majority of engines today are rated to operate on regular fuel.  There are some misconceptions still out there.  One is that premium fuel is better (quality) than midgrade, which is better than regular.  My understanding is that the octane rating determines the rate of which the fuel is burned.  That said, premium fuel provides no benefit in a vehicle that calls for regular fuel.

Now to complicate this even further:-).  Sometimes old engines or even an engine that not in the best shape will run better on premium or at least midgrade, especially in the cold.  I noticed this way back in the day when I still lived in NYC with my very first car.  It was a '87 Chevy Cavalier which had purchased used in 1989.  Even by 80s standards this car (and nearly every domestic car) had rather primative engines.  This car was typical of American cars in that it needed to be "warmed up", especially in cold temps etc.  So in the winter I always used midgrade and sometimes premium and it ran a better and help with those cold start-ups.

[WMAveteran]

There are more engines than you think that require high octane (93+) fuel.  I have two vehicles and both requre high octane fuel: a 1996 Ford Taurus SHO (Yamaha V8 engine) and a 2005 Volvo V70R (turbocharged 5 cyl developing 300 horsepower).  The mandated fuel depends on a lot of factors so if a person is motivated by the fuel prices then they should look carefully at the vehicle's fuel requirements.  Some Mercedes' and BMWs do not require high octane fuel and the Northstar engine in many Cadillacs can use regular gasoline.

[WMAveteran]

I'm thrilled that gasoline prices have come back to down, but the odd thing is that there's a big price difference between regular and midgrade/premium.

I have a very unpopular opinion on the decrease in fuel prices.  I am very sorry to see the prices falling because it will prompt consumers to use more fuel and not conserve.  Gas is a nonrenewable resource so people need to be very careful how they use it because once that gallon is used it is gone forever. 
We should be paying the same prices as Europeans who pay the equivalent of between $5-$7 per gallon.  As a result their vehicles get twice the average mileage of US cars. I just read that European cars get an average of 40 miles per gallon while US vehicles average only about 20 miles per gallon.  Once fuel prices go down people will return to purchasing and driving obscene vehicles like SUVs and pick-up trucks that obtain horrible gas mileage. Our recent reduction in fuel consumption (and corresponding rise in transit ridership) is the result of increased prices for gas.  We need to continue that downward trend in fuel consumption through higher prices to conserve our resources.

[Tritransit Area]

I'm thrilled that gasoline prices have come back to down, but the odd thing is that there's a big price difference between regular and midgrade/premium.

I have a very unpopular opinion on the decrease in fuel prices.  I am very sorry to see the prices falling because it will prompt consumers to use more fuel and not conserve.  Gas is a nonrenewable resource so people need to be very careful how they use it because once that gallon is used it is gone forever. 
We should be paying the same prices as Europeans who pay the equivalent of between $5-$7 per gallon.  As a result their vehicles get twice the average mileage of US cars. I just read that European cars get an average of 40 miles per gallon while US vehicles average only about 20 miles per gallon.  Once fuel prices go down people will return to purchasing and driving obscene vehicles like SUVs and pick-up trucks that obtain horrible gas mileage. Our recent reduction in fuel consumption (and corresponding rise in transit ridership) is the result of increased prices for gas.  We need to continue that downward trend in fuel consumption through higher prices to conserve our resources.

You make a great point, and that is something we need to consider.  However, economic-wise, using less gas through driving actually can hurt state revenue.  In Pennsylvania, there is less revenue from the gas tax as well as tolls, which in turn hurts transit (among other things), when transit needs more funding than ever!

We all really need to look at alternative fuels, like CNG, until we get to that affordable zero emission fuel (other than electricity, of course).  Hybrids are great, but there's also a whole bunch of Natural Gas that's available in our beautiful country.  In fact, CATA in State College, PA, which essentially runs on CNG, uses Natural Gas that comes right from their service area!

It's shameful that no other TA (to my knowledge) in PA uses CNG any longer, despite recent advancements in CNG technology.  While older engines had not so great performance, the ISL-G that's on the WMATA NABI 60-BRTs is a great performing engine!

There's my rant .

[WayneNYC]

There are more engines than you think that require high octane (93+) fuel.  I have two vehicles and both requre high octane fuel: a 1996 Ford Taurus SHO (Yamaha V8 engine) and a 2005 Volvo V70R (turbocharged 5 cyl developing 300 horsepower).  The mandated fuel depends on a lot of factors so if a person is motivated by the fuel prices then they should look carefully at the vehicle's fuel requirements.  Some Mercedes' and BMWs do not require high octane fuel and the Northstar engine in many Cadillacs can use regular gasoline.

I am well aware that lots of engines require premium fuel, but my point was not to list them all.  In regards to BMW engines, I'm relatively certain that I've never read any literature stating that premium fuel is suggested (and not required) for their engines.  I've also heard that BMW engines now have knock sensors, but the warning of possibly voiding the warranty for using lower octane fuel has me curious.  Also Mercedes states that they cannot guarantee their engines to perform as designed if premium fuel is not used.  I'm aware of Cadillac's Northstar too.  Actually, it originally did call for premium until GM improved the engine in the mid/late 90s.

If someone buys a high performance car without knowing it's fuel requirement, they have themselves to blame.  One of my cars uses premium too.  It's only suggested, but I still feed it premium.  When I don't want the expense, I drive my second car which is very fuel efficient.

[WayneNYC]

I'm thrilled that gasoline prices have come back to down, but the odd thing is that there's a big price difference between regular and midgrade/premium.

I have a very unpopular opinion on the decrease in fuel prices.  I am very sorry to see the prices falling because it will prompt consumers to use more fuel and not conserve.  Gas is a nonrenewable resource so people need to be very careful how they use it because once that gallon is used it is gone forever. 
We should be paying the same prices as Europeans who pay the equivalent of between $5-$7 per gallon.  As a result their vehicles get twice the average mileage of US cars. I just read that European cars get an average of 40 miles per gallon while US vehicles average only about 20 miles per gallon.  Once fuel prices go down people will return to purchasing and driving obscene vehicles like SUVs and pick-up trucks that obtain horrible gas mileage. Our recent reduction in fuel consumption (and corresponding rise in transit ridership) is the result of increased prices for gas.  We need to continue that downward trend in fuel consumption through higher prices to conserve our resources.

Yes, you make good points.  However, I'm not sure keeping fuel prices high is the answer.  More needs to be done.  Just looking at the issues here in the DC area is enough proof for me.  It's great that more people went to mass transit, but the problem is many transit agencies were in no position to handle all of the extra riders.  Also the transit agencies were hurting from blown fuel budgets.  This sort of thing needs to be phased in over time.  Myself and my wife complained, but we were able to absorb the extra cost.  Plenty of people can't afford to absorb the extra cost and lots of them went into debt just to buy gasoline.     

[WMAveteran]

I'm thrilled that gasoline prices have come back to down, but the odd thing is that there's a big price difference between regular and midgrade/premium.

I have a very unpopular opinion on the decrease in fuel prices.  I am very sorry to see the prices falling because it will prompt consumers to use more fuel and not conserve.  Gas is a nonrenewable resource so people need to be very careful how they use it because once that gallon is used it is gone forever. 
We should be paying the same prices as Europeans who pay the equivalent of between $5-$7 per gallon.  As a result their vehicles get twice the average mileage of US cars. I just read that European cars get an average of 40 miles per gallon while US vehicles average only about 20 miles per gallon.  Once fuel prices go down people will return to purchasing and driving obscene vehicles like SUVs and pick-up trucks that obtain horrible gas mileage. Our recent reduction in fuel consumption (and corresponding rise in transit ridership) is the result of increased prices for gas.  We need to continue that downward trend in fuel consumption through higher prices to conserve our resources.

You make a great point, and that is something we need to consider.  However, economic-wise, using less gas through driving actually can hurt state revenue.  In Pennsylvania, there is less revenue from the gas tax as well as tolls, which in turn hurts transit (among other things), when transit needs more funding than ever!

We all really need to look at alternative fuels, like CNG, until we get to that affordable zero emission fuel (other than electricity, of course).  Hybrids are great, but there's also a whole bunch of Natural Gas that's available in our beautiful country.  In fact, CATA in State College, PA, which essentially runs on CNG, uses Natural Gas that comes right from their service area!

It's shameful that no other TA (to my knowledge) in PA uses CNG any longer, despite recent advancements in CNG technology.  While older engines had not so great performance, the ISL-G that's on the WMATA NABI 60-BRTs is a great performing engine!

There's my rant .

Yes Tritransit, you are absolutely correct that we need to use more CNG.  The USA has something like 30% of the world's natural gas but only 3% of the world's oil. The other part of the solution is to create a more sustainable lifestyle that doesn't rely so much on consuming our natural resources.  Those states and the federal government that rely on gas taxes are actually encouraging consumption. What happens when the fossil fuels run out?  One of President-elect Obama's plaform planks is to employ people in environmentally sustainable occupations and conserve our remaining natural resources.

[WMAveteran]

I'm thrilled that gasoline prices have come back to down, but the odd thing is that there's a big price difference between regular and midgrade/premium.

I have a very unpopular opinion on the decrease in fuel prices.  I am very sorry to see the prices falling because it will prompt consumers to use more fuel and not conserve.  Gas is a nonrenewable resource so people need to be very careful how they use it because once that gallon is used it is gone forever. 
We should be paying the same prices as Europeans who pay the equivalent of between $5-$7 per gallon.  As a result their vehicles get twice the average mileage of US cars. I just read that European cars get an average of 40 miles per gallon while US vehicles average only about 20 miles per gallon.  Once fuel prices go down people will return to purchasing and driving obscene vehicles like SUVs and pick-up trucks that obtain horrible gas mileage. Our recent reduction in fuel consumption (and corresponding rise in transit ridership) is the result of increased prices for gas.  We need to continue that downward trend in fuel consumption through higher prices to conserve our resources.

Yes, you make good points.  However, I'm not sure keeping fuel prices high is the answer.  More needs to be done.  Just looking at the issues here in the DC area is enough proof for me.  It's great that more people went to mass transit, but the problem is many transit agencies were in no position to handle all of the extra riders.  Also the transit agencies were hurting from blown fuel budgets.  This sort of thing needs to be phased in over time.  Myself and my wife complained, but we were able to absorb the extra cost.  Plenty of people can't afford to absorb the extra cost and lots of them went into debt just to buy gasoline.    

In theory WayneNYC you are correct but in practice, because the USA relies so heavily on foreign oil, we are not in control of the prices.  As we exchange views here OPEC has decided to meet to lower production so that oil prices will rise again.  Any way you look at it the answer is to use less of the oil and conserve.

[WayneNYC]

WMAveteran,

Agreed.  Hopefully the US won't keep having to learn this the hard way.  I hate to see this sort of thing because again, the little guy/havenots always seem to get hurt the most.  Americans love to have things big (homes, food portions, vehicles and their engines, etc).  We need to learn to use less and waste less.  When I say Americans, I count myself in there as well.