Although WMATA is whipped from New Flyer. Would anyone accept anymore Orions in Wmata
WMATA does have this thing with getting just about every type of Orion they see. So I wouldn't be surprised if they get some NGs.
I still feel CNGs for the new Southeastern and Hybrids for Landover,and Clean disels for the rebuilt Annex
Quote from: LandoverDivision on September 11, 2009, 09:42:22 AM
WMATA does have this thing with getting just about every type of Orion they see. So I wouldn't be surprised if they get some NGs.
I thought WMATA and Orion called it quits after the O7 CNG debacle.
Quote from: Scrabbleship on September 11, 2009, 12:55:43 PM
Quote from: LandoverDivision on September 11, 2009, 09:42:22 AM
WMATA does have this thing with getting just about every type of Orion they see. So I wouldn't be surprised if they get some NGs.
I thought WMATA and Orion called it quits after the O7 CNG debacle.
Probably not they always get what ever orion puts out why do you think they got the VII's in the first place plus times have changed since then
Quote from: annex4421 on September 11, 2009, 01:01:53 PM
Quote from: Scrabbleship on September 11, 2009, 12:55:43 PM
Quote from: LandoverDivision on September 11, 2009, 09:42:22 AM
WMATA does have this thing with getting just about every type of Orion they see. So I wouldn't be surprised if they get some NGs.
I thought WMATA and Orion called it quits after the O7 CNG debacle.
Probably not they always get what ever orion puts out why do you think they got the VII's in the first place plus times have changed since then
Maybe it's just my seeing other TA's and their divorces (MTA-MD and NABI, MTA-NY and New Flyer, etc.), but often those stick. Heck, sometimes a company can rule another out based on suspicion and innuendo (see MTA-NY and Neoplan).
Once you go New Flyer you don't generally go back (see SEPTA)
Quote from: Tritransit Area on September 11, 2009, 03:48:33 PM
Once you go New Flyer you don't generally go back (see SEPTA)
and CTA...
Quote from: annex4421 on September 11, 2009, 05:04:35 PM
Quote from: rideonrulez on September 11, 2009, 03:49:28 PM
Quote from: Tritransit Area on September 11, 2009, 03:48:33 PM
Once you go New Flyer you don't generally go back (see SEPTA)
and CTA...
Don't forget MTA MARYLAND
MARTA would like to have a word with all of you (their affair with Orion aside).
Also: MBTA, MCTS, and TriMet too.
Orion needs to step their game up hopefully the NG's bring back good relationships
We've never had Orions here in Vegas. I think they'd spontaneously combust from the heat. I wouldn't mind seeing Gilligs, but I like the fact that we're pretty much getting New Flyers for most of our orders. I'm sending the 27 NABI Hybrids over to our new maintenance facility so I can keep the reliability up at Simmons. The blocks I'm putting them on at Sunset are easy ones that can handle an unreliable bus.
What Model and year?
Quote from: annex4421 on September 11, 2009, 07:58:30 PM
Orion needs to step their game up hopefully the NG's bring back good relationships
Daimler Buses North America and New York MTA destroyed the Orion name and its reputation.
Actually didn't WMATA go Flyer possessed in '06 with the D40LFRs, DE40LFs, and DE40LFRs? Then in the same year bought Orion VIIs (2700s)? Then a year later went back to New Flyer and bought C40LFRs? Then another year later bought NABI 60-BRTs? Then again to New Flyer? Anybody notice a pattern here?
Well that sucks I really looked foward to riding them, well theres always Faifax connector speaking of which they're supposed to get some more D40LFRS
Quote from: annex4421 on September 11, 2009, 01:01:53 PM
Quote from: Scrabbleship on September 11, 2009, 12:55:43 PM
Quote from: LandoverDivision on September 11, 2009, 09:42:22 AM
WMATA does have this thing with getting just about every type of Orion they see. So I wouldn't be surprised if they get some NGs.
I thought WMATA and Orion called it quits after the O7 CNG debacle.
Probably not they always get what ever orion puts out why do you think they got the VII's in the first place plus times have changed since then
WMATA's Orion VIIs are horrendous. What were the major issues what WMATA had with them? Wasn't that order severely delayed repeatedly?
To jump to another transit service that was a long time Orion customer, Ride On, those Orion VIIs (especially the latest order, oh my!) are the reasons why I don't see diesel/hybrid versions running on the 16 as I always dreamed :( .
They VII's looked fine the last time I saw them they dominate Virginia
Quote from: Tritransit Area on September 12, 2009, 11:13:42 PM
Quote from: annex4421 on September 11, 2009, 01:01:53 PM
Quote from: Scrabbleship on September 11, 2009, 12:55:43 PM
Quote from: LandoverDivision on September 11, 2009, 09:42:22 AM
WMATA does have this thing with getting just about every type of Orion they see. So I wouldn't be surprised if they get some NGs.
I thought WMATA and Orion called it quits after the O7 CNG debacle.
Probably not they always get what ever orion puts out why do you think they got the VII's in the first place plus times have changed since then
WMATA's Orion VIIs are horrendous. What were the major issues what WMATA had with them? Wasn't that order severely delayed repeatedly?
To jump to another transit service that was a long time Orion customer, Ride On, those Orion VIIs (especially the latest order, oh my!) are the reasons why I don't see diesel/hybrid versions running on the 16 as I always dreamed :( .
It really is too bad, to simply put it nicely the O7 starting up was a disaster. They bidded on too many contracts with the model and then faced a huge backlog when they hit production, and then came the problems, but by then so many were in the late stages of production or in service, that the reputation took a hard hit. After 2005 or so, after the Daimler bigwigs were unimpressed by the whole fiasco (probably right after the WMATA disaster) Orion started dramatically improving the build quality of their buses and invested more money into quality control. You can't argue that the build quality hasn't improved, with all the new customers that have jumped onto the bandwagon lately.
And just wait, in a few years Ride On will probably be looking at another manufacturer - just by looking at how other Gilligs have fared in heavy duty situations, which isn't too great since they aren't really heavy duty buses. I can use many agencies as an example - such as Des Moines, Iowa and Ames, Iowa where they purchased Gilligs from 1998-2004 and went to Orion in 2005 after not being happy with extensive rust and high rattling. And it was surprising, because Des Moines and Ames take very good care of their buses.
Quote from: Tritransit Area on September 11, 2009, 11:13:24 PM
Quote from: annex4421 on September 11, 2009, 07:58:30 PM
Orion needs to step their game up hopefully the NG's bring back good relationships
Daimler Buses North America and New York MTA destroyed the Orion name and its reputation.
Ever considered how beneficial MTA has been to Orion over the years?
I Don't hate Orion's the still have my vote. I wish Orion and WMATA make up.
Everyone likes making up but this isn't high school romance -- this (the 2500s) was a multimillion dollar bus order riddled with issues beyond those of a normal fleet launch, some of which have not been settled to this day.*
Unless WMATA gets in some kind of pinch where they have no choice but to go Orion, I really don't see a new order going their way unless they come up with some sort of detailed plan on how to prevent what happened the last time around. Not at long as New Flyer is in business anyway, although their manufacturing defect with the overweight buses is embarrassing (did any of these overweight units make it onto WMATA property? It's much less embarrassing, actually it looks good, if New Flyer caught the problem before they arrived).
Why buy a Pacer when you can get an Accord? Why go with a company they know has given them major issues when they can buy from a company with a proven track record of high-quality, on-time orders?
*Yes all new bus orders come with their problems, but not all new buses are assembled with velcro and plastic.
Quote from: daimlerbuses on September 14, 2009, 08:13:01 PM
And just wait, in a few years Ride On will probably be looking at another manufacturer - just by looking at how other Gilligs have fared in heavy duty situations, which isn't too great since they aren't really heavy duty buses. I can use many agencies as an example - such as Des Moines, Iowa and Ames, Iowa where they purchased Gilligs from 1998-2004 and went to Orion in 2005 after not being happy with extensive rust and high rattling. And it was surprising, because Des Moines and Ames take very good care of their buses.
Well as of now Ride On can't go to Orion as they have a 5 year contract with Gillig UNLESS they get CNG buses which they were suppose to order 8 additional units a few years back. But after the last batch of Orion VII's that came in were plagued with problems and were 6 months late, they backed out. If Ride On decides to move on to another manufacturer, it will probably be New Flyer because the Operations Manager is from SEPTA which is land of the New Flyer. But then again it is a bidding process so who knows....
Quote from: rideonrulez on September 15, 2009, 09:19:41 AM
Quote from: daimlerbuses on September 14, 2009, 08:13:01 PM
And just wait, in a few years Ride On will probably be looking at another manufacturer - just by looking at how other Gilligs have fared in heavy duty situations, which isn't too great since they aren't really heavy duty buses. I can use many agencies as an example - such as Des Moines, Iowa and Ames, Iowa where they purchased Gilligs from 1998-2004 and went to Orion in 2005 after not being happy with extensive rust and high rattling. And it was surprising, because Des Moines and Ames take very good care of their buses.
Well as of now Ride On can't go to Orion as they have a 5 year contract with Gillig UNLESS they get CNG buses which they were suppose to order 8 additional units a few years back. But after the last batch of Orion VII's that came in were plagued with problems and were 6 months late, they backed out. If Ride On decides to move on to another manufacturer, it will probably be New Flyer because the Operations Manager is from SEPTA which is land of the New Flyer. But then again it is a bidding process so who knows....
Maybe you guys could get some New Flyer LFA's. But I hope Ride-On dosn't gt NABI's.
Quote from: Tristan on September 15, 2009, 12:03:13 AM
Everyone likes making up but this isn't high school romance -- this (the 2500s) was a multimillion dollar bus order riddled with issues beyond those of a normal fleet launch, some of which have not been settled to this day.*
Unless WMATA gets in some kind of pinch where they have no choice but to go Orion, I really don't see a new order going their way unless they come up with some sort of detailed plan on how to prevent what happened the last time around. Not at long as New Flyer is in business anyway, although their manufacturing defect with the overweight buses is embarrassing (did any of these overweight units make it onto WMATA property? It's much less embarrassing, actually it looks good, if New Flyer caught the problem before they arrived).
Why buy a Pacer when you can get an Accord? Why go with a company they know has given them major issues when they can buy from a company with a proven track record of high-quality, on-time orders?
*Yes all new bus orders come with their problems, but not all new buses are assembled with velcro and plastic.
Well You do make a great point besides I do like the New Flyers. But since WMATA is glued to hybrids why not Orion hybrids? I dont think WMATA would have an issue since hybids are some what better than CNG's which I don't agree with.
Quote from: annex4421 on September 15, 2009, 09:33:04 AM
Quote from: Tristan on September 15, 2009, 12:03:13 AM
Everyone likes making up but this isn't high school romance -- this (the 2500s) was a multimillion dollar bus order riddled with issues beyond those of a normal fleet launch, some of which have not been settled to this day.*
Unless WMATA gets in some kind of pinch where they have no choice but to go Orion, I really don't see a new order going their way unless they come up with some sort of detailed plan on how to prevent what happened the last time around. Not at long as New Flyer is in business anyway, although their manufacturing defect with the overweight buses is embarrassing (did any of these overweight units make it onto WMATA property? It's much less embarrassing, actually it looks good, if New Flyer caught the problem before they arrived).
Why buy a Pacer when you can get an Accord? Why go with a company they know has given them major issues when they can buy from a company with a proven track record of high-quality, on-time orders?
*Yes all new bus orders come with their problems, but not all new buses are assembled with velcro and plastic.
Well You do make a great point besides I do like the New Flyers. But since WMATA is glued to hybrids why not Orion hybrids? I dont think WMATA would have an issue since hybids are some what better than CNG's which I don't agree with.
Hybrids are better because of the gas it can save plus it's cleaner and cheaper. When it comes to sound CNGs are better.
Quote from: rideonrulez on September 15, 2009, 09:19:41 AM
Quote from: daimlerbuses on September 14, 2009, 08:13:01 PM
And just wait, in a few years Ride On will probably be looking at another manufacturer - just by looking at how other Gilligs have fared in heavy duty situations, which isn't too great since they aren't really heavy duty buses. I can use many agencies as an example - such as Des Moines, Iowa and Ames, Iowa where they purchased Gilligs from 1998-2004 and went to Orion in 2005 after not being happy with extensive rust and high rattling. And it was surprising, because Des Moines and Ames take very good care of their buses.
Well as of now Ride On can't go to Orion as they have a 5 year contract with Gillig UNLESS they get CNG buses which they were suppose to order 8 additional units a few years back. But after the last batch of Orion VII's that came in were plagued with problems and were 6 months late, they backed out. If Ride On decides to move on to another manufacturer, it will probably be New Flyer because the Operations Manager is from SEPTA which is land of the New Flyer. But then again it is a bidding process so who knows....
Wouldn't that contract be up soon or did the original hybrids that came via the NYS Consortium not count towards that total? I believe that in the case of RGRTA, their part of consortium hybrids counted towards their contract though in their case it was mid-contract.
As for SEPTA influence = New Flyer, CDTA's now former head came from SEPTA (and even painted some of the buses in a SEPTA-esque scheme) and they also entered a 5-year deal with Gillig. In fact, he ended up putting down New Flyer at a public presentation where the buses for the original part of their Gillig order were compared, largely due to concerns with the doors of the LFR's!
Quote from: LandoverDivision on September 15, 2009, 09:44:01 AM
Quote from: annex4421 on September 15, 2009, 09:33:04 AM
Well You do make a great point besides I do like the New Flyers. But since WMATA is glued to hybrids why not Orion hybrids? I dont think WMATA would have an issue since hybids are some what better than CNG's which I don't agree with.
Hybrids are better because of the gas it can save plus it's cleaner and cheaper. When it comes to sound CNGs are better.
Huh? Natural Gas is cheaper than diesel fuel, especially nowadays. Natural Gas is domestically produced. CNG buses are cheaper than hybrid buses. CNG is safer than diesel. How is diesel cleaner than natural gas?
Quote from: rideonrulez on September 15, 2009, 09:19:41 AM
Well as of now Ride On can't go to Orion as they have a 5 year contract with Gillig UNLESS they get CNG buses which they were suppose to order 8 additional units a few years back. But after the last batch of Orion VII's that came in were plagued with problems and were 6 months late, they backed out. If Ride On decides to move on to another manufacturer, it will probably be New Flyer because the Operations Manager is from SEPTA which is land of the New Flyer. But then again it is a bidding process so who knows....
A
FIVE YEAR GILLIG CONTRACT?! Oh Ride On, you're breaking my heart! However, in terms of the C40LFs, how are they treating Ride On? I never hear anything about them, and I generally avoid them since, well, I come from the land of the New Flyer.
Quote from: Scrabbleship on September 15, 2009, 09:50:30 AM
Wouldn't that contract be up soon or did the original hybrids that came via the NYS Consortium not count towards that total? I believe that in the case of RGRTA, their part of consortium hybrids counted towards their contract though in their case it was mid-contract.
The NYS Consortium only involved the original five Gillig hybrids, if I'm not mistaken. The frameless window buses, as well as the ones coming in right now in the Big R scheme, are a different order. Remember that this order includes diesel buses as well.
I really wouldn't mind seeing Ride On with some Gillig BRTs. Wouldn't kill them to get some Orion CNGs or diesel 30-foots like FFX got.
Quote from: daimlerbuses on September 14, 2009, 08:17:53 PM
Quote from: Tritransit Area on September 11, 2009, 11:13:24 PM
Quote from: annex4421 on September 11, 2009, 07:58:30 PM
Orion needs to step their game up hopefully the NG's bring back good relationships
Daimler Buses North America and New York MTA destroyed the Orion name and its reputation.
Ever considered how beneficial MTA has been to Orion over the years?
Yes, but I think it's somewhat debatable. MTA has purchased a lot of Orions, particularly the Orion VII, but then they clogged up production lines and who could forget the wonderful "shaker table" test that humiliated Orion?
In a way, I think that Orion (and Daimler) became so comfortable with the mega MTA contracts that they started to forget about the little/medium guys like our very own Ride-On and DASH that supported them for decades, and gave them crappy buses. Now DASH and Ride-On are disgusted by the Orion brand name - a name that once stood for quality, reliability, and trust.
You know, once upon a time, Orion was a major contendor for Gillig among smaller agencies. Now, Gillig just about has it all, with the exception of CNG orders.
Speaking of Ride On's latest batch of Orion VIIs, I don't think they are running well to this day! Although it was a year or so ago, I rode a few of the ZFs. The awful lurching and poor performance is uncharacteristic of a bus with a ZF.
It's too bad, really. The Orion VII was the downfall of Orion...
Quote from: Tritransit Area on September 15, 2009, 10:21:43 AM
Quote from: daimlerbuses on September 14, 2009, 08:17:53 PM
Quote from: Tritransit Area on September 11, 2009, 11:13:24 PM
Quote from: annex4421 on September 11, 2009, 07:58:30 PM
Orion needs to step their game up hopefully the NG's bring back good relationships
Daimler Buses North America and New York MTA destroyed the Orion name and its reputation.
Ever considered how beneficial MTA has been to Orion over the years?
Yes, but I think it's somewhat debatable. MTA has purchased a lot of Orions, particularly the Orion VII, but then they clogged up production lines and who could forget the wonderful "shaker table" test that humiliated Orion?
In a way, I think that Orion (and Daimler) became so comfortable with the mega MTA contracts that they started to forget about the little/medium guys like our very own Ride-On and DASH that supported them for decades, and gave them crappy buses. Now DASH and Ride-On are disgusted by the Orion brand name - a name that once stood for quality, reliability, and trust.
You know, once upon a time, Orion was a major contendor for Gillig among smaller agencies. Now, Gillig just about has it all, with the exception of CNG orders.
Speaking of Ride On's latest batch of Orion VIIs, I don't think they are running well to this day! Although it was a year or so ago, I rode a few of the ZFs. The awful lurching and poor performance is uncharacteristic of a bus with a ZF.
It's too bad, really. The Orion VII was the downfall of Orion...
Well said. Agreed on the ZFs too. it's no wonder Orion discontinued production of the VII early. IMO WMATA's Orion VIIs are actually the best ones I've heard. But I hear they were having a lot of problems when they first ordered them. Orion seriosuly needs to step up their game or they will be no more. They should learn from New Flyer and Gillig.
Exactly. Hopefully the Orion VIII (If ever created) will bring Orion Back. Is NYC's Orion's VII AND VII NG still running well? Should Orion merge with another Bus company? Or should Orion Just stop making VII's period?
Besides WMATA, Ride-On,and MTA seem to be betting on hybrids because of the "Go Green" era. And Wmata and MTA is all over New Flyer with the hybrid orders, and Ride-On with Gillig. I think it's just a fad that'll probably run out and then Here comes Orion and their CNG's and then the TA's will jump all over them just watch.
Quote from: Tritransit Area on September 15, 2009, 10:21:43 AM
Quote from: daimlerbuses on September 14, 2009, 08:17:53 PM
Quote from: Tritransit Area on September 11, 2009, 11:13:24 PM
Quote from: annex4421 on September 11, 2009, 07:58:30 PM
Orion needs to step their game up hopefully the NG's bring back good relationships
Daimler Buses North America and New York MTA destroyed the Orion name and its reputation.
Ever considered how beneficial MTA has been to Orion over the years?
Yes, but I think it's somewhat debatable. MTA has purchased a lot of Orions, particularly the Orion VII, but then they clogged up production lines and who could forget the wonderful "shaker table" test that humiliated Orion?
In a way, I think that Orion (and Daimler) became so comfortable with the mega MTA contracts that they started to forget about the little/medium guys like our very own Ride-On and DASH that supported them for decades, and gave them crappy buses. Now DASH and Ride-On are disgusted by the Orion brand name - a name that once stood for quality, reliability, and trust.
You know, once upon a time, Orion was a major contendor for Gillig among smaller agencies. Now, Gillig just about has it all, with the exception of CNG orders.
Speaking of Ride On's latest batch of Orion VIIs, I don't think they are running well to this day! Although it was a year or so ago, I rode a few of the ZFs. The awful lurching and poor performance is uncharacteristic of a bus with a ZF.
It's too bad, really. The Orion VII was the downfall of Orion...
I woudn't say that, there are many small customers that are perfectly happy with Orion these days. Keep in mind Ride-On got some of the early Orion VII's (around 2003 and 2004). Every bus has problems in it's first few years of production, the Orion VII being no different.
As for DASH...I don't know what to say about that statement because they have an order for 10 Orion VII's for 2010 delivery. Hmm...
I highly doubt Orion would "just care about MTA" because they do have to consider if they did, then what would happen should MTA just decide to award a contract to someone else...
Quote from: LandoverDivision on September 15, 2009, 10:25:37 AM
Quote from: Tritransit Area on September 15, 2009, 10:21:43 AM
Quote from: daimlerbuses on September 14, 2009, 08:17:53 PM
Quote from: Tritransit Area on September 11, 2009, 11:13:24 PM
Quote from: annex4421 on September 11, 2009, 07:58:30 PM
Orion needs to step their game up hopefully the NG's bring back good relationships
Daimler Buses North America and New York MTA destroyed the Orion name and its reputation.
Ever considered how beneficial MTA has been to Orion over the years?
Yes, but I think it's somewhat debatable. MTA has purchased a lot of Orions, particularly the Orion VII, but then they clogged up production lines and who could forget the wonderful "shaker table" test that humiliated Orion?
In a way, I think that Orion (and Daimler) became so comfortable with the mega MTA contracts that they started to forget about the little/medium guys like our very own Ride-On and DASH that supported them for decades, and gave them crappy buses. Now DASH and Ride-On are disgusted by the Orion brand name - a name that once stood for quality, reliability, and trust.
You know, once upon a time, Orion was a major contendor for Gillig among smaller agencies. Now, Gillig just about has it all, with the exception of CNG orders.
Speaking of Ride On's latest batch of Orion VIIs, I don't think they are running well to this day! Although it was a year or so ago, I rode a few of the ZFs. The awful lurching and poor performance is uncharacteristic of a bus with a ZF.
It's too bad, really. The Orion VII was the downfall of Orion...
Well said. Agreed on the ZFs too. it's no wonder Orion discontinued production of the VII early. IMO WMATA's Orion VIIs are actually the best ones I've heard. But I hear they were having a lot of problems when they first ordered them. Orion seriosuly needs to step up their game or they will be no more. They should learn from New Flyer and Gillig.
Learn from New Flyer and Gillig...HA HA! Sorry guys, but NFI and Gillig are far from the holy grain you guys make them to be, especially New Flyer as of late. They both have their major downfalls, just like Orion.
And you do realize that the Old Orion VII and the NG are pretty much the same? just take away the bonded in windows, and the extra molding on the front and rear and alas folks, I present you the Orion VII OG...
Quote from: daimlerbuses on September 15, 2009, 05:52:25 PM
As for DASH...I don't know what to say about that statement because they have an order for 10 Orion VII's for 2010 delivery. Hmm...
Fascinating! Either the NG impressed DASH officials or the low bid prevailed. I still stand by my statement, though. DASH's last 2 batches of Orion Vs were late and had more "teething" issues and headaches than the previous batches. It seemed like they were very pleased with their latest batch of Phantoms as well.
Nonetheless, it'd be cool to see Orion VII NGs running in Alexandria. I wonder if they will be in a new scheme, as I can't imagine an Orion VII NG fitting in the old scheme.
Quote from: Annex4421 on September 15, 2009, 10:33:32 AM
Exactly. Hopefully the Orion VIII (If ever created) will bring Orion Back. Is NYC's Orion's VII AND VII NG still running well? Should Orion merge with another Bus company? Or should Orion Just stop making VII's period?
Orion is owned by Daimler Buses North America, and is only a brand now. The Orion VIII will allegedly be an articulated model based off of the Mercedes Citaro, which is supposed to be a very good bus.
Quote from: daimlerbuses on September 15, 2009, 05:52:25 PM
Quote from: Tritransit Area on September 15, 2009, 10:21:43 AM
Quote from: daimlerbuses on September 14, 2009, 08:17:53 PM
Quote from: Tritransit Area on September 11, 2009, 11:13:24 PM
Quote from: annex4421 on September 11, 2009, 07:58:30 PM
Orion needs to step their game up hopefully the NG's bring back good relationships
Daimler Buses North America and New York MTA destroyed the Orion name and its reputation.
Ever considered how beneficial MTA has been to Orion over the years?
Yes, but I think it's somewhat debatable. MTA has purchased a lot of Orions, particularly the Orion VII, but then they clogged up production lines and who could forget the wonderful "shaker table" test that humiliated Orion?
In a way, I think that Orion (and Daimler) became so comfortable with the mega MTA contracts that they started to forget about the little/medium guys like our very own Ride-On and DASH that supported them for decades, and gave them crappy buses. Now DASH and Ride-On are disgusted by the Orion brand name - a name that once stood for quality, reliability, and trust.
You know, once upon a time, Orion was a major contendor for Gillig among smaller agencies. Now, Gillig just about has it all, with the exception of CNG orders.
Speaking of Ride On's latest batch of Orion VIIs, I don't think they are running well to this day! Although it was a year or so ago, I rode a few of the ZFs. The awful lurching and poor performance is uncharacteristic of a bus with a ZF.
It's too bad, really. The Orion VII was the downfall of Orion...
I woudn't say that, there are many small customers that are perfectly happy with Orion these days. Keep in mind Ride-On got some of the early Orion VII's (around 2003 and 2004). Every bus has problems in it's first few years of production, the Orion VII being no different.
As for DASH...I don't know what to say about that statement because they have an order for 10 Orion VII's for 2010 delivery. Hmm...
I highly doubt Orion would "just care about MTA" because they do have to consider if they did, then what would happen should MTA just decide to award a contract to someone else...
Actually do you have the proof to say that DASH is ordering from Orion, I need the source saying that this is so. I have heard, from a reliable source who works for DASH that DASH is still considering who they are ordering from.
Yea Alexandria DASH does not have an order for Orions of any kind as far as I know. At our last discussion, we hadn't even decided how many 40-foot buses we'd try to squeeze into this order, so naming the manufacturer is a bit premature (most likely Gillig though).
Quote from: LandoverDivision on September 15, 2009, 10:25:37 AM
Quote from: Tritransit Area on September 15, 2009, 10:21:43 AM
Quote from: daimlerbuses on September 14, 2009, 08:17:53 PM
Quote from: Tritransit Area on September 11, 2009, 11:13:24 PM
Quote from: annex4421 on September 11, 2009, 07:58:30 PM
Orion needs to step their game up hopefully the NG's bring back good relationships
Daimler Buses North America and New York MTA destroyed the Orion name and its reputation.
Ever considered how beneficial MTA has been to Orion over the years?
Yes, but I think it's somewhat debatable. MTA has purchased a lot of Orions, particularly the Orion VII, but then they clogged up production lines and who could forget the wonderful "shaker table" test that humiliated Orion?
In a way, I think that Orion (and Daimler) became so comfortable with the mega MTA contracts that they started to forget about the little/medium guys like our very own Ride-On and DASH that supported them for decades, and gave them crappy buses. Now DASH and Ride-On are disgusted by the Orion brand name - a name that once stood for quality, reliability, and trust.
You know, once upon a time, Orion was a major contendor for Gillig among smaller agencies. Now, Gillig just about has it all, with the exception of CNG orders.
Speaking of Ride On's latest batch of Orion VIIs, I don't think they are running well to this day! Although it was a year or so ago, I rode a few of the ZFs. The awful lurching and poor performance is uncharacteristic of a bus with a ZF.
It's too bad, really. The Orion VII was the downfall of Orion...
Well said. Agreed on the ZFs too. it's no wonder Orion discontinued production of the VII early. IMO WMATA's Orion VIIs are actually the best ones I've heard. But I hear they were having a lot of problems when they first ordered them. Orion seriosuly needs to step up their game or they will be no more. They should learn from New Flyer and Gillig.
Uhh since when did Orion discontinue the Orion VII?
Quote from: Tritransit Area on September 15, 2009, 10:12:06 AM
Quote from: rideonrulez on September 15, 2009, 09:19:41 AM
Well as of now Ride On can't go to Orion as they have a 5 year contract with Gillig UNLESS they get CNG buses which they were suppose to order 8 additional units a few years back. But after the last batch of Orion VII's that came in were plagued with problems and were 6 months late, they backed out. If Ride On decides to move on to another manufacturer, it will probably be New Flyer because the Operations Manager is from SEPTA which is land of the New Flyer. But then again it is a bidding process so who knows....
A FIVE YEAR GILLIG CONTRACT?! Oh Ride On, you're breaking my heart! However, in terms of the C40LFs, how are they treating Ride On? I never hear anything about them, and I generally avoid them since, well, I come from the land of the New Flyer.
I live in the middle of their operating area and one thing for sure is that those C40LFs are almost always on the road. If I heard that Ride On wished they had more, I wouldn't be suprised.
Quote from: aznboy4305 on September 16, 2009, 10:40:13 PM
Uhh since when did Orion discontinue the Orion VII?
Discontinued production in 2007. The Orion VII NG is still in production though. The only Orion bus still in production. It's a shame but it is what it is.
Quote from: LandoverDivision on September 17, 2009, 07:41:26 AM
Quote from: aznboy4305 on September 16, 2009, 10:40:13 PM
Uhh since when did Orion discontinue the Orion VII?
Discontinued production in 2007. The Orion VII NG is still in production though. The only Orion bus still in production. It's a shame but it is what it is.
The Orion VIII is comming soon. Also I think a BRT verson of the NG.
Quote from: LandoverDivision on September 17, 2009, 07:41:26 AM
Quote from: aznboy4305 on September 16, 2009, 10:40:13 PM
Uhh since when did Orion discontinue the Orion VII?
Discontinued production in 2007. The Orion VII NG is still in production though. The only Orion bus still in production. It's a shame but it is what it is.
Um, no...its not what it is...just because they gave it a face lift and threw two letters onto the name for marketing purposes doesn't mean they "discontinued" the model, you can't spell "Orion VII NG" without "Orion VII" can you??
Quote from: aznboy4305 on September 17, 2009, 09:33:17 AM
Quote from: LandoverDivision on September 17, 2009, 07:41:26 AM
Quote from: aznboy4305 on September 16, 2009, 10:40:13 PM
Uhh since when did Orion discontinue the Orion VII?
Discontinued production in 2007. The Orion VII NG is still in production though. The only Orion bus still in production. It's a shame but it is what it is.
.....its the exact same bus............
Think of the NG as the restyled Orion VII.
Quote from: LandoverDivision on September 17, 2009, 09:41:24 AM
Quote from: aznboy4305 on September 17, 2009, 09:33:17 AM
Quote from: LandoverDivision on September 17, 2009, 07:41:26 AM
Quote from: aznboy4305 on September 16, 2009, 10:40:13 PM
Uhh since when did Orion discontinue the Orion VII?
Discontinued production in 2007. The Orion VII NG is still in production though. The only Orion bus still in production. It's a shame but it is what it is.
.....its the exact same bus............
Think of the NG as the restyled Orion VII.
Well yes it is but it doesn't mean the "Orion VII is discontinued". When an Escalade or an Accord gets a minor face lift (such as a new grille or taillights), that generation model isn't "discontinued".
Quote from: Tristan on September 16, 2009, 12:11:53 AM
Yea Alexandria DASH does not have an order for Orions of any kind as far as I know. At our last discussion, we hadn't even decided how many 40-foot buses we'd try to squeeze into this order, so naming the manufacturer is a bit premature (most likely Gillig though).
Wow, you guys are upgrading to 40 footers as well? Also, did y'all ever finish that new garage you were building?
Quote from: WES on September 16, 2009, 12:09:13 AM
Quote from: daimlerbuses on September 15, 2009, 05:52:25 PM
Quote from: Tritransit Area on September 15, 2009, 10:21:43 AM
Quote from: daimlerbuses on September 14, 2009, 08:17:53 PM
Quote from: Tritransit Area on September 11, 2009, 11:13:24 PM
Quote from: annex4421 on September 11, 2009, 07:58:30 PM
Orion needs to step their game up hopefully the NG's bring back good relationships
Daimler Buses North America and New York MTA destroyed the Orion name and its reputation.
Ever considered how beneficial MTA has been to Orion over the years?
Yes, but I think it's somewhat debatable. MTA has purchased a lot of Orions, particularly the Orion VII, but then they clogged up production lines and who could forget the wonderful "shaker table" test that humiliated Orion?
In a way, I think that Orion (and Daimler) became so comfortable with the mega MTA contracts that they started to forget about the little/medium guys like our very own Ride-On and DASH that supported them for decades, and gave them crappy buses. Now DASH and Ride-On are disgusted by the Orion brand name - a name that once stood for quality, reliability, and trust.
You know, once upon a time, Orion was a major contendor for Gillig among smaller agencies. Now, Gillig just about has it all, with the exception of CNG orders.
Speaking of Ride On's latest batch of Orion VIIs, I don't think they are running well to this day! Although it was a year or so ago, I rode a few of the ZFs. The awful lurching and poor performance is uncharacteristic of a bus with a ZF.
It's too bad, really. The Orion VII was the downfall of Orion...
I woudn't say that, there are many small customers that are perfectly happy with Orion these days. Keep in mind Ride-On got some of the early Orion VII's (around 2003 and 2004). Every bus has problems in it's first few years of production, the Orion VII being no different.
As for DASH...I don't know what to say about that statement because they have an order for 10 Orion VII's for 2010 delivery. Hmm...
I highly doubt Orion would "just care about MTA" because they do have to consider if they did, then what would happen should MTA just decide to award a contract to someone else...
Actually do you have the proof to say that DASH is ordering from Orion, I need the source saying that this is so. I have heard, from a reliable source who works for DASH that DASH is still considering who they are ordering from.
I have an uncle who works in the tenders and bids departments at Orion in Mississauga who said that they would be getting the next DASH order by way of letter of interest. For those of you wondering what that is, it's something a lot of agencies do to get a favorable slot in the manufacturer's production line. The agency sends out a tender asking for bids, then signs a letter of interest to a specific company (eg NFI) saying they intend to accept the successful tender, and the manufacturer can begin production. Ever wonder why some orders you see out there seem to arrive so quick? This is why.
I'd be more than happy to email my uncle and forward you the response, if we really have to go to that stage...
Although do note that that information is 2 months old, so things could have changed by now...
One thing guys...Here's my main point in this debate: While some of you have made valid points and proof to back up about the VII fiasco, etc. You cannot just assume because a company stops buying the product means that the company is dissatisfied as a whole with the product or manufacturer (in this case Orion). There are many factors that come into play (eg. specifications, delivery time, etc.) and you can try and think that you know by simply asking someone like a mechanic or even a few of them, but they are only one of many people involved, and you just can't please everyone.
And no, I am not Orion biased. I approach everything openly, if I have to stick up for/criticize Orion, NABI, NFI, Nova, Gillig, etc. then I will.
Quote from: aznboy4305 on September 17, 2009, 09:33:17 AM
Quote from: LandoverDivision on September 17, 2009, 07:41:26 AM
Quote from: aznboy4305 on September 16, 2009, 10:40:13 PM
Uhh since when did Orion discontinue the Orion VII?
Discontinued production in 2007. The Orion VII NG is still in production though. The only Orion bus still in production. It's a shame but it is what it is.
Um, no...its not what it is...just because they gave it a face lift and threw two letters onto the name for marketing purposes doesn't mean they "discontinued" the model, you can't spell "Orion VII NG" without "Orion VII" can you??
I repeat again, the Orion VII NG is the exact same as the Orion VII...only differences are extra molding stuck onto the ends and seamless, bonded in windows...Delete those items and I present you a 2009 Orion VII.
Thank you, it really is amazing how some people can get fooled by some extracurricular plastic...
Orion VII NG - Plastic = Orion VII
Gillig BRT - Plastic = Gillig Advantage
NABI 60BRT - Plastic = NABI 60LFW
New Flyer DE42LFA - Plastic = New Flyer D40LF
What exactly were the problems with WMATA's Orion VII's? I'm interested.
Quote from: daimlerbuses on September 17, 2009, 04:28:07 PM
As for DASH...I don't know what to say about that statement because they have an order for 10 Orion VII's for 2010 delivery. Hmm...
We (I'm employed by DASH, if you're wondering about my source) might have opened slots for a potential order but it is false to claim that the order is a done deal. If we get hybrids, which is very likely due to Stimulus money that would pay the difference in cost between diesels and hybrids, it's highly likely that we would go with Gillig because they use the Allison package, and our mechanics are already familiar with Allison equipment. That's something very important to us -- we take the Southwest Airlines approach to fleet standardization.
An aside:
You don't have to post a letter from your uncle or whatnot but we have a rule against unsubstantiated claims here unless they're placed in a topic we have called "The Grapevine" - which is where rumor mill material should be posted. So, if there's any backlash against your claim, it's because it is purported as fact with no verifiable source. We don't like that because we don't want to preserve lies/misinformation along with the historical information we're trying to string together.
Not saying that you're lying or anything, we just have no way of knowing...it's sort of like the rules on Wikipedia.
Quote from: aznboy4305 on September 17, 2009, 05:24:16 PM
Thank you, it really is amazing how some people can get fooled by some extracurricular plastic...
Orion VII NG - Plastic = Orion VII
Gillig BRT - Plastic = Gillig Advantage
NABI 60BRT - Plastic = NABI 60LFW
New Flyer DE42LFA - Plastic = New Flyer D40LF
Wouldn't a D40LFR - Plastic = D40LF too?
As for the 60BRT vs. 60LFW, if it's merely just plastic why then is the 60BRT a success whereas the only 60LFW's were retired after only 6 years in service. It has to be more than the fact that it's the only CNG artic in production, yes?
Quote from: Scrabbleship on September 18, 2009, 10:02:40 AM
Wouldn't a D40LFR - Plastic = D40LF too?
Yep
Quote from: Scrabbleship on September 18, 2009, 10:02:40 AM
As for the 60BRT vs. 60LFW, if it's merely just plastic why then is the 60BRT a success whereas the only 60LFW's were retired after only 6 years in service. It has to be more than the fact that it's the only CNG artic in production, yes?
Because the 60BRT hasn't existed for 6 years yet. From what I've seen, I wouldn't be surprised if the 60BRT gets retired prematurely also.
Quote from: aznboy4305 on September 18, 2009, 10:20:35 AM
Quote from: Scrabbleship on September 18, 2009, 10:02:40 AM
Wouldn't a D40LFR - Plastic = D40LF too?
Yep
Quote from: Scrabbleship on September 18, 2009, 10:02:40 AM
As for the 60BRT vs. 60LFW, if it's merely just plastic why then is the 60BRT a success whereas the only 60LFW's were retired after only 6 years in service. It has to be more than the fact that it's the only CNG artic in production, yes?
Because the 60BRT hasn't existed for 6 years yet. From what I've seen, I wouldn't be surprised if the 60BRT gets retired prematurely also.
There goes running them on the X2... :P
Quote from: Tristan on September 18, 2009, 10:00:25 AM
Quote from: daimlerbuses on September 17, 2009, 04:28:07 PM
As for DASH...I don't know what to say about that statement because they have an order for 10 Orion VII's for 2010 delivery. Hmm...
We (I'm employed by DASH, if you're wondering about my source) might have opened slots for a potential order but it is false to claim that the order is a done deal. If we get hybrids, which is very likely due to Stimulus money that would pay the difference in cost between diesels and hybrids, it's highly likely that we would go with Gillig because they use the Allison package, and our mechanics are already familiar with Allison equipment. That's something very important to us -- we take the Southwest Airlines approach to fleet standardization.
An aside:
You don't have to post a letter from your uncle or whatnot but we have a rule against unsubstantiated claims here unless they're placed in a topic we have called "The Grapevine" - which is where rumor mill material should be posted. So, if there's any backlash against your claim, it's because it is purported as fact with no verifiable source. We don't like that because we don't want to preserve lies/misinformation along with the historical information we're trying to string together.
Not saying that you're lying or anything, we just have no way of knowing...it's sort of like the rules on Wikipedia.
It's ok, there are so many people working within the transit industry that it is almost impossible in a lot of scenarios to get a straight answer, as it can depend on whom you talk to.
As for that comment about production slots - true, but once that letter of interest is signed (as it has been, according to uncle) that means the parties have agreed to such and such (DASH and Orion) although I'm sure there could be a section about canceling the order in there...
And I'm not trying to make false or unsupported claims here, but if others see so then I guess I should post in that rumor mill section next time...
And Final point, I believe I said your VII's would be diesel..so I don't know where the hybrid aspect came out of this...did I say hybrid by accident?
PS. How you guys liking those Orion V's?
Quote from: Tristan on September 18, 2009, 10:00:25 AM
Quote from: daimlerbuses on September 17, 2009, 04:28:07 PM
As for DASH...I don't know what to say about that statement because they have an order for 10 Orion VII's for 2010 delivery. Hmm...
We (I'm employed by DASH, if you're wondering about my source) might have opened slots for a potential order but it is false to claim that the order is a done deal. If we get hybrids, which is very likely due to Stimulus money that would pay the difference in cost between diesels and hybrids, it's highly likely that we would go with Gillig because they use the Allison package, and our mechanics are already familiar with Allison equipment. That's something very important to us -- we take the Southwest Airlines approach to fleet standardization.
An aside:
You don't have to post a letter from your uncle or whatnot but we have a rule against unsubstantiated claims here unless they're placed in a topic we have called "The Grapevine" - which is where rumor mill material should be posted. So, if there's any backlash against your claim, it's because it is purported as fact with no verifiable source. We don't like that because we don't want to preserve lies/misinformation along with the historical information we're trying to string together.
Not saying that you're lying or anything, we just have no way of knowing...it's sort of like the rules on Wikipedia.
I wouldn't mind if DASH gets Gilligs they would look good for DASH.
Actually we were originally quite pissed with the last Orion Vs because they were some of the first buses off the line after the strike and each unit had it's own problems...mostly resolved to this point.
In regards to hybrids, we received the aforementioned grant to upgrade to hybrids, so there's no reason for us not to go that route.
Quote from: Tristan on September 19, 2009, 06:11:43 PM
Actually we were originally quite pissed with the last Orion Vs because they were some of the first buses off the line after the strike and each unit had it's own problems...mostly resolved to this point.
In regards to hybrids, we received the aforementioned grant to upgrade to hybrids, so there's no reason for us not to go that route.
Are you looking at Gillig Advantages? or something else
As I said, most likely Gillig Advantages.... But nothing here is official yet.
Quote from: Tristan on September 20, 2009, 10:03:58 AM
As I said, most likely Gillig Advantages.... But nothing here is official yet.
Ok thanks and please keeps us posted.
I agree, WMATA should buy Orion VII NG.
They should replace all remaining Flixble Metro ( just in case, if there not fully replaced by DE42LFA), and all 1997-1998 Orion V.
Yes someone agrees with me Orion VII NGs CNGs and Hybrids.
Quote from: Annex4421 on November 15, 2009, 06:53:22 PM
Yes someone agrees with me Orion VII NGs CNGs and Hybrids.
Also they are rumors saying that WMATA cloud be buying from Orion near future.
I hope it's true that WMATA does.
Me too, but I heard WMATA doesn't have a good business relationship with Orion so I don't know.
Quote from: Annex4421 on November 15, 2009, 07:07:56 PM
Me too, but I heard WMATA doesn't have a good business relationship with Orion so I don't know.
lets wait and see what happens. ;)
I did hear WMATA had ordered 35ft versons of the NG in 2007 but gave them away. But I'm not sure.
Quote from: Annex4421 on November 15, 2009, 07:27:25 PM
I did hear WMATA had ordered 35ft versons of the NG in 2007 but gave them away.
oh.