I just found out how the routes are programmed into the Clever Device system. With all the routes WMATA has how hard was it to get the routes programmed, especially the Virginia routes?
Is every route programmed into the Clever Devices?
Sometimes the newer routes or route changes are not ready to run on the very first day of service, but eventually they all get in.
Every single bus stop has a GPS coordinate and an announcement file and display text have to be matched to each stop. Every route, regardless of how minor a diversion it does, is programmed separately into the system, so even with the VA routes (which aren't worse than the rest of the system, I dunno why the distinction was even made), each of them are in the system.
I don't think anyone here has programmed a Clever system, though, to say exactly "how hard" it was to do so.
Quote from: Tristan on August 17, 2008, 12:35:27 PM
I don't think anyone here has programmed a Clever system, though, to say exactly "how hard" it was to do so.
T'aint fun!!! They are not the most receptive to cutting and pasting duplicate segments (meaning they like you to drive the line as many times as there are patterns) and their "Tool" (their term) does not readily accept late revisions or corrections. So if you find that you forgot to include that new "had-to-have" stop at the Senior Center, you have to call them to insert the stop at their HQ and then re-download the stop listing for use on their tool.
Then comes other frustrating things.
Occasionally, the tool will fail to record the stop reading or the GPS will crap out. This means driving BACK to the prior stop, re-registering, and then trying to record the segment again. Not too much of a headache on a grid of streets, but much harder on a more remote road with only spur streets on it (the GPS gets confused with backing up or U-turns).
And on some Express runs, you'll find the need to record an unannounced "dummy stop" to keep the Tool from simply shutting itself off.
How a large agency like WMATA maintains such an extensive database is beyond me.
Quote from: btconet on August 17, 2008, 02:23:53 PM
Quote from: Tristan on August 17, 2008, 12:35:27 PM
I don't think anyone here has programmed a Clever system, though, to say exactly "how hard" it was to do so.
T'aint fun!!! They are not the most receptive to cutting and pasting duplicate segments (meaning they like you to drive the line as many times as there are patterns) and their "Tool" (their term) does not readily accept late revisions or corrections. So if you find that you forgot to include that new "had-to-have" stop at the Senior Center, you have to call them to insert the stop at their HQ and then re-download the stop listing for use on their tool.
Then comes other frustrating things.
Occasionally, the tool will fail to record the stop reading or the GPS will crap out. This means driving BACK to the prior stop, re-registering, and then trying to record the segment again. Not too much of a headache on a grid of streets, but much harder on a more remote road with only spur streets on it (the GPS gets confused with backing up or U-turns).
And on some Express runs, you'll find the need to record an unannounced "dummy stop" to keep the Tool from simply shutting itself off.
How a large agency like WMATA maintains such an extensive database is beyond me.
I swear there are still some old pre-GBBI runs still programmed in the system. I've seen a few of the old 5 7 Sunday service pre 2001 even on a Flyer. MTA shoulda made the different runs include the origin to make things simpler. Sometimes you'll get 5 or 6 runs thatll say CEDONIA and each one of them has a different start point.
As for a large database, Chicago's must be hard to do as well. They have about 2/3 of the routes that WMATA has.
It's hard with any sized system. We have it too and there are times I'll hear incorrect announcements but they have to wait until a new build is sent out so they can all be inserted in. Then you have the vehicles that do have the changes, some that don't and add in other bells and whistles.
Seriously, bring back roll signs and have the operators announce streets. Transit should not be so technological. All it does is put money in the hands of nerds who don't know transit and makes it hard for everyone else to use it.
Oops...forgot about you B'more people...sorry!
Quote from: btconet on August 17, 2008, 02:23:53 PM
Quote from: Tristan on August 17, 2008, 12:35:27 PM
I don't think anyone here has programmed a Clever system, though, to say exactly "how hard" it was to do so.
T'aint fun!!! They are not the most receptive to cutting and pasting duplicate segments (meaning they like you to drive the line as many times as there are patterns) and their "Tool" (their term) does not readily accept late revisions or corrections. So if you find that you forgot to include that new "had-to-have" stop at the Senior Center, you have to call them to insert the stop at their HQ and then re-download the stop listing for use on their tool.
Then comes other frustrating things.
Occasionally, the tool will fail to record the stop reading or the GPS will crap out. This means driving BACK to the prior stop, re-registering, and then trying to record the segment again. Not too much of a headache on a grid of streets, but much harder on a more remote road with only spur streets on it (the GPS gets confused with backing up or U-turns).
And on some Express runs, you'll find the need to record an unannounced "dummy stop" to keep the Tool from simply shutting itself off.
How a large agency like WMATA maintains such an extensive database is beyond me.
Quote from: Perry on August 17, 2008, 04:21:06 PMSeriously, bring back roll signs and have the operators announce streets. Transit should not be so technological. All it does is put money in the hands of nerds who don't know transit and makes it hard for everyone else to use it.
POST OF THE DAY!!!!
All too often it seems that too much budget is spent buying and maintaining these elaborate systems. Every $ spent on these enhancements would do a lot more for people providing trips than locked up in a motherboard that only one person can maintain.
Back in '75, a whole bus cost $50000. Today, you're probably paying more than that for just the LED Sign, GPS, IVN, APCs, and Farebox!
Quote from: btconet on August 17, 2008, 06:21:45 PM
Quote from: Perry on August 17, 2008, 04:21:06 PMSeriously, bring back roll signs and have the operators announce streets. Transit should not be so technological. All it does is put money in the hands of nerds who don't know transit and makes it hard for everyone else to use it.
POST OF THE DAY!!!!
All too often it seems that too much budget is spent buying and maintaining these elaborate systems. Every $ spent on these enhancements would do a lot more for people providing trips than locked up in a motherboard that only one person can maintain.
Back in '75, a whole bus cost $50000. Today, you're probably paying more than that for just the LED Sign, GPS, IVN, APCs, and Farebox!
I agree. I remember hearing stories about the integration between the Orbital system and the farebox in DC. Good in theory. Hell of a time in practice. Sept 4 2007. The radio system went out meaning no one could log into the farebox. Over 200k loss on that day. A couple of months ago, alot of the Clever Devices systems didn't work after the Air Show shuttles. Even doing a manual set of the signs wouldn't work. Alot of NOT IN SERVICE signs as well as wacky route numbers. 292 (C2) 383 (83) 552 (Z8).
Tell me about it. Everytime we get to a new service change there are always issues because headsigns weren't uploaded properly or you have ones that don't work, get stuck on some other reading or just become hard to figure out. Then you get the fareboxes with the constant jamming, passes that get stuck, operators that can't get logged in.
In Ottawa they still use non-registering fareboxes and they run an awesome system. Actually most of Candada has the US beat in transit operations.
Quote from: Perry on August 17, 2008, 06:26:55 PM
Tell me about it. Everytime we get to a new service change there are always issues because headsigns weren't uploaded properly or you have ones that don't work, get stuck on some other reading or just become hard to figure out. Then you get the fareboxes with the constant jamming, passes that get stuck, operators that can't get logged in.
Those GFI boxes are hell. I know alot of operators that have a hard time with them. A few times I've seen them just crash and the only way to reset it is to shut off the bus, cut the battery power, reset it, and power back up. Shouldn't there be an override switch built in to avoid this process.
As for the headsigns, I wish I could program them. It went from shorthand to teeny text. Obviously, someone sacrificed legibility for simplicity. It's hard to read TWINBROOK STATION and FRIENDSHIPHEIGHTS from a couple blocks away.
I used to program the signs at PRTC. I used to go back and forth with whether to do multi line or multi screen. It just depended on how much I needed to put on there. I changed one of the OmniLink signs because the way I had it was too small, so for the next service change I made it huge. Not usre if it's still like that or not. I'm sure it is as they don't really make that many changes. I also put in some destinations that they may or may never use, but at the time it was a possibility.
Buried in them I have the names of operators who participated in the VA State Roadeo when we hosted it a few years ago.
The Odyssey's are extremely slow accepting bills. It really cuts into the run time and it stinks to have to build that time into the schedule.
Quote from: 79MetroExtraMD on August 17, 2008, 03:52:33 PM
I swear there are still some old pre-GBBI runs still programmed in the system. I've seen a few of the old 5 7 Sunday service pre 2001 even on a Flyer. MTA shoulda made the different runs include the origin to make things simpler. Sometimes you'll get 5 or 6 runs thatll say CEDONIA and each one of them has a different start point.
As for a large database, Chicago's must be hard to do as well. They have about 2/3 of the routes that WMATA has.
I bet some of the Clever Devices still have the old 46, 47, 48, and 49 school routes.
Quote from: Perry on August 17, 2008, 06:46:07 PM
I used to program the signs at PRTC. I used to go back and forth with whether to do multi line or multi screen. It just depended on how much I needed to put on there. I changed one of the OmniLink signs because the way I had it was too small, so for the next service change I made it huge. Not usre if it's still like that or not. I'm sure it is as they don't really make that many changes. I also put in some destinations that they may or may never use, but at the time it was a possibility.
Buried in them I have the names of operators who participated in the VA State Roadeo when we hosted it a few years ago.
The Odyssey's are extremely slow accepting bills. It really cuts into the run time and it stinks to have to build that time into the schedule.
I'd love to program signs for some TA one day. I want to program in FINISHED SERVICE to the buses at Shuttle.
As for the Odyssey's, that's a problem in Baltimore too. The cash folks get on first and the people with passes either have to go around to try to swipe or just get on. I think once transfers are eliminated at Metro, it should pan out to decrease the dwell times if all of those people paying with cash get Smartrip or flash pass. As for Baltimore, it'll be quite a while until the MD Transit Pass debuts and fare media can be loaded onto the card. The only problem is availibility of the TVMs to do the process since theyre the only place that can do the transactions (at least for the time being). The places that sell passes would have to set up a POS system to have this capability.
Quote from: NGOrion on August 17, 2008, 06:53:14 PM
I bet some of the Clever Devices still have the old 46, 47, 48, and 49 school routes.
I doubt it. If I find a friendly operator, I might be able to ask him/her to try, but I think after those routes were absorbed into trippers on local lines, those routes were programmed into the regular routes list.
To tell you the truth, our Odysseys are...actually...not too bad anymore. The bill validators have an orange sticker saying "THIS UNIT HAS BEEN MODIFIED BY GFI"...seems like our early problems have been solved.
I wish we had those. At one point they were thinking of shutting the validators off completely but then there would be no way to know how much someone is putting in there and the reader would only show it being a dollar bill even if someone put in a 10.
Quote from: Tristan on August 17, 2008, 07:16:31 PM
To tell you the truth, our Odysseys are...actually...not too bad anymore. The bill validators have an orange sticker saying "THIS UNIT HAS BEEN MODIFIED BY GFI"...seems like our early problems have been solved.
Is there still a problem of wrinkled bills and folds that makes the farebox reject them or not take them? That was a doozy when they first were installed.
Well it's still more picky than the CentsABills but we're still in better shape I think; our CentsABills would malfunction after heating up on sunny "C" lot during summertime splits ("C" is our lot facing the railroad tracks, out in the hot, direct sunlight) which caused lots of problems for evening runs. Maybe people here adjusted and started using better bills.
I think if the bill is flat, it will get accepted. Wrinkles pose as much a problem as they would with other vending machines.
Then again, I don't use our fareboxes too much ;D
Quote from: Tristan on August 17, 2008, 08:16:49 PM
Well it's still more picky than the CentsABills but we're still in better shape I think; our CentsABills would malfunction after heating up on sunny "C" lot during summertime splits ("C" is our lot facing the railroad tracks, out in the hot, direct sunlight) which caused lots of problems for evening runs. Maybe people here adjusted and started using better bills.
I think if the bill is flat, it will get accepted. Wrinkles pose as much a problem as they would with other vending machines.
Then again, I don't use our fareboxes too much ;D
SmarTrip all the way for me. I do use the box just to add money or to check my balance and xfer time.
I spend a good deal of my day reporting technical problems with Clever Device Units, Odessey Fareboxes, Destination Signs and on-board cameras. As Perry stated, the buses are getting too technical. I think our technicians are ready to hang me. ::)
Quite frankly, I'm surprised we haven't followed DASH's lead in having the GED fix applied to our fareboxes.
Chuck
Quote from: smithavechuck on August 22, 2008, 12:44:20 AM
I spend a good deal of my day reporting technical problems with Clever Device Units, Odessey Fareboxes, Destination Signs and on-board cameras. As Perry stated, the buses are getting too technical. I think our technicians are ready to hang me. ::)
Quite frankly, I'm surprised we haven't followed DASH's lead in having the GED fix applied to our fareboxes.
Chuck
At least we don't tie in the integration part to it. It's like a Windows computer with different pieces of hardware and drivers. You can't seem to get everything to work together. Clever Devices seems to have a mind of its own. Works sometimes, broken other times. The one thing I can't seem to understand is how the sign flashes to NOT IN SERVICE when entering the route/dest and then goes to the right reading. Then theres the TTT thing (which I still have gotten no answer as to why that designation).
The GFI boxes are a curse both operator and passenger alike. For operators, trying to record a bunch of data in a single run dealing with flash passes, transfers, cash, and Smartrip transactions at the same time without having it spaz out which I've seen on occassion doing a couple of runs with a few operators I know. From a passenger standpoint, too much technical bs with having to have crisp bills and putting coins in one at a time. Smartrip folks have seen their share of problems, me included. Some of the targets seem to misread cards even if placed directly on the target and sometimes wont read the card at all. Gone thru 6 cards in the past 4 years due to techincal problems.
I just "love" Luminator signs. Just as Balios signs were not the best decision for MTA to get, Luminator Horizons werent as well. I miss the old MAX3000 signs that provided some kind of brightness and clarity. I see alot of broken signs, panels spazzing out, and just plain craziness. Except for 2801 with the TITAN sign, the Horizons suck. Why couldn't WMATA had gone with the Aesys signs like they put on 4212 and 2164. Best signs I've ever seen. If you ride the 32 or the C4, you'd wonder who thought trying to fit every single letter in a long destination on one display was a good idea. Bring your glasses if you want to see the sign from a block away.
What's the GED fix?
Signs:
Every model has a different type of sign. Many of the NABI front signs are impossible to read during daylight hours and are so bright during hours of darkness, one must shield their eyes.
From my perspective, the signs change to NIS at the terminal because of a signal transmitted by a transponder at that location. Howeverm starting Sunday, the signs should remain stable at Milford Mill Station as all buses will remain assigned to Route 54.
I might be all wet on this one, so correct me if I'm incorrect.
The Neoplans appear to have the best and brighest signs that are readable daylight or nighttime. The signs in the New Flyers are hit & miss. They are bright one day and so dim the next, they can't even be read at night.
Fareboxes:
I'm in agreement with you on this one - to a point. As Tristan stated, the boxes at DASH were corrected by the manufacturer and apparently are basically okay now. So why do other properties have so much difficulties when DASH is doing fine?
BTW, I want to thank everyone for making DC Transit Zone an obvious success. Tristan & Chris G worked very hard to make it a go for all of us.
Chuck
Quote from: smithavechuck on August 22, 2008, 09:43:31 PM
Signs:
Every model has a different type of sign. Many of the NABI front signs are impossible to read during daylight hours and are so bright during hours of darkness, one must shield their eyes.
From my perspective, the signs change to NIS at the terminal because of a signal transmitted by a transponder at that location. Howeverm starting Sunday, the signs should remain stable at Milford Mill Station as all buses will remain assigned to Route 54.
I might be all wet on this one, so correct me if I'm incorrect.
What I meant about the change to NIS was that when you set the system to do a return run or even starting it, it flashes between NIS before displaying the correct sign. Also, as for MTAs ones, when are they gonna organize many of the duplicate runs in the system that have different origins (including the school trippers). I find having the origin-
>dest in the lists helpful especially for some of the runs they do. I've seen on the screens where you got a number beside the destination, but it could either be set as an express run or even a school tripper; all the operator sees is that destination. I'd suggest putting in that number into the paddles to make things easier.
Also, is there any chance that the Balios crushed buses will get some sort of thing done to improve upon the visibility. Those cluster LEDs aren't really the best and the daytime washout has been a problem (I remember when they first scrolled. Those were the days)
That quick NIS exposure will probably remain as it is only displayed for a moment. Issue number 2 will probably not change either. Buses can't display the name of any school as that practice is unlawful as I understand it as it precludes adults from riding the buses. (Perry, you're good at this issue).
As far as the Balos signs, I doubt iif you will see much in the way of change. Starting next year, the agency will begin receiving 80-100 new buses per year. Per the Administrator, the MTA will be 100% Hybrid in 6-7 years. The MTA isn't going to spend a lot of money on buses that will be deleted from the fleet in 2-3 years.
Part of my job is to make certain that the CD systems work in all of the buses that I ride, check or observe. I try to work with the CD tech and we seem to be getting the job done. But, it's not easy with virtually every bus in the system now equipped (with the exceptions of the 9200s, 9000s & 8900s).
Chuck
Chuck
Quote from: smithavechuck on August 22, 2008, 11:33:21 PM
That quick NIS exposure will probably remain as it is only displayed for a moment. Issue number 2 will probably not change either. Buses can't display the name of any school as that practice is unlawful as I understand it as it precludes adults from riding the buses. (Perry, you're good at this issue).
As far as the Balos signs, I doubt iif you will see much in the way of change. Starting next year, the agency will begin receiving 80-100 new buses per year. Per the Administrator, the MTA will be 100% Hybrid in 6-7 years. The MTA isn't going to spend a lot of money on buses that will be deleted from the fleet in 2-3 years.
Part of my job is to make certain that the CD systems work in all of the buses that I ride, check or observe. I try to work with the CD tech and we seem to be getting the job done. But, it's not easy with virtually every bus in the system now equipped (with the exceptions of the 9200s, 9000s & 8900s).
Chuck
Chuck
I know MTA is getting all hybrids now, Chuck. I live there. As for the CDS, I was referring to the afternoon runs where you got the trippers with the school origins. I know about the rule about not showing the school in the sign. Speaking of the trippers, wouldn't it be kinda good to have a separate schedule consisting of all the school trippers just as a point of reference than just the description?
They are listed separately in the public timetables under "Supplemental Service."
Chuck