New Rail Service, Franconia-Springfield to Greenbelt (http://wmata.com/about/rac/racdocs/docs/Blue%20Line%20Split%20RAC%20Presentation,%20October%208,%202008.pdf) (764 KB PDF file)
Blue Line Realignment and Feedback from Rider Survey
October 2008
See system map showing service as Brown line on page 7.
Also see Blue Line Realignment (http://www.wmata.com/board_gm/board_docs/021408_4BBlueLinerealignment.pdf) (413 KB PDF file) dated 02 14 2008
This idea is not new. Revised Rail Fleet Management Plan (http://www.wmata.com/about/expansion/Rail_Fleet_Management_Plan_Revised_20070601.pdf) ( 3.38 MB PDF file) dated 06 01 2007 labeled this proposed service as the Aqua line on PDF pages 52, 54, 55, 57 and 58.
It first appeared on PDF page 41 in volume I chapter 2 (http://www.dullesmetro.com//www/pdfs/FEIS_I/FTA_FEIS_Chapter_2.pdf) of the Dulles Corridor Metrorail Project FEIS (1.62 MB PDF file) dated 02 05 2006.
Split of Metro Line Has Many Riders Singing the Blues (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/15/AR2008111502095.html)
By Robert Thomson (Dr. Gridlock)
Sunday, November 16, 2008
Link to article referred to in the third paragraph.
Breaking the Blue Line Jams (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/25/AR2008102501815.html)
By Lena H. Sun
Sunday, October 26, 2008
Welcome back John. Glad to see you giving us the close-to-inside scoop on all things Metrorail.
Don't be a stranger!
I read that it may be a brown line. I think that will work out perfectly. A whole new rail line for peak hours only. Franconia Springfield - Greenbelt.
Have you seen the map with the Brown Line? It looks like crap --
'coneyraven'
Have you seen the map with the Brown Line? It looks like crap --
Pun intended?
Seriously thought, I don't think the map shown in the document I link to will be the version that will be displayed aboard the train and in the stations.
It would look better with the Yellow line to the left of the other pairs of lines.
Here it is:
http://wmata.com/about/rac/racdocs/docs/Blue%20Line%20Split%20RAC%20Presentation,%20October%208,%202008.pdf#page=7 (http://wmata.com/about/rac/racdocs/docs/Blue%20Line%20Split%20RAC%20Presentation,%20October%208,%202008.pdf#page=7)
I can't think of any other color it could be. Brown just doesn't seem right.
Well brown line is quite right. A very bad deal for anyone from S. Arlington, Alexandria, and S. Fairfax County. Bottom line, we don;'t want to go there we want to go to the city core. I note the Arlington County Transit advisory Committee voted against this,and the RAC was not keen on it either. When you looked at the staff presentation, the survey and statistical work was either intentionally wrong or just childish.
Oh and they would need TWO new colors. One for the brown line (so appropriately named) and the other for the orange line trains that would go to Largo.
Antozilla
Oh and they would need TWO new colors. One for the brown line (so appropriately named) and the other for the orange line trains that would go to Largo.
Not an issue. Prior to the deployment if electronic destination signs line color was assigned based on the sign color of the terminal station destination sign. Today line color is based on the line color at the starting terminal station.
WMATA has assigned multiple line colors for the same terminal station using different destination codes.
New Carrollton
Orange 20
Blue 21
Largo
Orange 55
Blue 77
Stadium/Armory
Orange 36
Blue 66
Yellow 30
Mount Vernon Square
Blue 38
Green 46
Yellow 28
Franconia-Springfield
Blue 16
Green 39
Yellow 26
Huntington
Yellow 31
Blue 21
Green 48
Greenbelt
Green 44
Yellow 24
Blue 71
What WMATA will likely do is change Blue to Brown on the Mount Vernon Square and Greenbelt destination codes and change Green to Brown on the Huntington and Franconia-Springfield destination codes.
There are 12 unassigned destination codes in the destination code table.
Two destination codes were assigned to the Dulles route when the destination code table was originally created.
John please explain more as the numbers mean nothing to me at this point.
The numbers are the destination sign codes.
I wonder how an LED sign would display silver and brown?
The silver would probably look rather gray while bown, that would be hard to show on a screen, maybe it would look more beige?
Antozilla
John please explain more as the numbers mean nothing to me at this point.
The numbers above are 19 of the 100 destination codes that are used to route trains across the railroad from their point origin to their final destination and display destinations station names on the destination signs.
The destination codes are normally automatically assigned to a train based on the manual input of a train number before a train leaves the storage yard.
When a train enters ATC (Automatic Train Control) territory, wayside train control will receive a series of coded signals from a train by way of TWC (Train to Wayside Communication) that tells wayside train control what the train number is and how many cars are in the train. Wayside train control will look in the schedule to find what destination code is assigned to that train number and automatically assign the destination code. As a train travels along the railroad the local wayside train control uses the destination code in the TWC signal transmitted from a train to route the train through the proper path at the various interlockings on its way to the trains final destination.
Of the 100 destination codes in the destination code table 25 codes are assigned to nonrevenue destination movements (pockets tracks, yards, connector tracks and terminal stations), 3 codes have no destinations assigned to them but will display text on the destination signs. As pointed out before 12 codes are unassigned. The remaining codes 60 are assigned to terminal stations and other stations that can be used as final destinations.
At the various interlocking on the railroad selected destination codes that are manually inputted by the train operator will route trains through an interlocking along a non normal route.
Table of WMATA destination codes (http://mysite.verizon.net/cambronj/wmata/destination_codes.htm)
Tristan
I wonder how an LED sign would display silver and brown?
From what Oren has told me the colors displayed on the destinations signs use discrete color LEDs. I am not sure how the color brown will be displayed.
Computer generated renderings of the 7k cars have lead me to believe that the LEDs in the destinations signs on those cars will have RGB LEDs that will allow the text in the station name to be displayed in the appropriate line color.
Quote from: NGOrion on November 19, 2008, 07:34:09 AM
Here it is:
http://wmata.com/about/rac/racdocs/docs/Blue%20Line%20Split%20RAC%20Presentation,%20October%208,%202008.pdf#page=7 (http://wmata.com/about/rac/racdocs/docs/Blue%20Line%20Split%20RAC%20Presentation,%20October%208,%202008.pdf#page=7)
I can't think of any other color it could be. Brown just doesn't seem right.
I guess you could do like Chicago and label it the Pink Line, though that seems a bit more appropriate as a short service of the Red Line, say Dupont Circle to New York Avenue.
I guess there's Gold or Sea Green, but they'd likely be too close to their main routes.
I actually like the idea, as it offers new opportunities and an alternative for VRE commuters from Springfield. Besides, I've not heard any constructive criticism that addresses a solution the bottlenecking issue.
Silver will probably just be white. When Red, Green,and Blue light are on at the same time at the same brightness makes white. White is the closest color that an RGB can come to silver. As for brown it will probably be a dimmed yellow
Quote from: Tristan on December 05, 2008, 06:20:03 PM
I wonder how an LED sign would display silver and brown?
Here's what silver would like:
NGOrion link
Silver will probably just be white. When Red, Green,and Blue light are on at the same time at the same brightness makes white. White is the closest color that an RGB can come to silver. As for brown it will probably be a dimmed yellow
The percentage of luminosity needed to render brown using RGB LEDs is, red 64.7%, green 16.4%, blue 16.4%.
I am assuming that photo was taken of the head sign on a metrorail train after asking a train operator to manually punch in destination code 34.
Quote from: Sand Box John on December 06, 2008, 09:01:10 PM
NGOrion link
Silver will probably just be white. When Red, Green,and Blue light are on at the same time at the same brightness makes white. White is the closest color that an RGB can come to silver. As for brown it will probably be a dimmed yellow
The percentage of luminosity needed to render brown using RGB LEDs is, red 64.7%, green 16.4%, blue 16.4%.
I am assuming that photo was taken of the head sign on a metrorail train after asking a train operator to manually punch in destination code 34.
Something about that photo doesn't look realistic to me, my apologies in advance if that isn't the case. The LED signs only show two vertical bars on each side of the color word on the head sign at most, not four.
(http://orenstransitpage.com/otpdccars/dccaf49.jpg)
(http://orenstransitpage.com/otpdccars/dcbredar13.jpg)
(http://orenstransitpage.com/otpdccars/dcalstom15.jpg)
Actually
Quote from: Sand Box John on December 06, 2008, 09:01:10 PM
The percentage of luminosity needed to
I am assuming that photo was taken of the head sign on a metrorail train after asking a train operator to manually punch in destination code 34.
Actually thats just my BetaBrite Prism sign mimicking the Metrorail sign. I just did that to see what silver would look like. In person it looks pretty realistic. But of course it would be a lot better to see Silver in on the rail car.
Its this type of sign here:
(http://www.betabrite.com/images/bbprism.jpg)
NGOrion
Actually thats just my BetaBrite Prism sign mimicking the Metrorail sign. I just did that to see what silver would look like. In person it looks pretty realistic. But of course it would be a lot better to see Silver in on the rail car.
Where did you purchase the display?
Bought it from Sams Club. It was $199.99.
Maybe the 7000s will have better signs; however, NG, your theory as to having different colors on at once won't work because I believe these aren't RGB LEDs but LEDs that light up a different color depending on the voltage (meaning they can only display one color at a time); admittedly, I'm only making this assumption based on the clarity of the colors displayed relative to the "muddy" "not quite but I'll go with it" color you see from a multi-color bus destination sign.
Are you sure they aren't RGB LEDs, or at least the part where the color displays on the rail cars? Because, when it comes to LED's the only way for orange or yellow light to be displayed, red and green must be on at the same time. Different brightnesses for Orange and different brightnesses for yellow.
But when it comes to the bus LED's, its obvious that the sign is fixed to display the orange/amber color (red and green at the same time at different brightnesses) all the time. If you ever notice in some of the bus photos, if you look very closely at the sign you can see red and green almost separated in some of the individual pixels.
The colored LEDs on the Metrorail signs are for specific colors, going Yellow, Orange, Green, Blue, Red from outside to in. If you look at the various photos on my website, you can see that the lights are in different positions on the signs. The same goes for the side signs, except the order of the colors there from left to right is Yellow, Orange, Red, Green, Blue, an order that clearly predated the decision to run the Blue Line to Franconia Springfield, which is why its sign looks so cluttered. The order of the colored flip dots on the 1000s and 4000s is also the same.
NGOrion
Are you sure they aren't RGB LEDs, or at least the part where the color displays on the rail cars? Because, when it comes to LED's the only way for orange or yellow light to be displayed, red and green must be on at the same time.
Look at the three photo Oren posted above. The orange bars are closer to the ends of the display then the red ones. Other pictures on Oren web site (http://orenstransitpage.com/otpdccars/dchome.htm) show the other colors in different position. From the pictures it look like the order of the colors is green, yellow, orange, red and blue from the ends to the center.
|||||||||| TEXT AREA ||||||||||
So if any new lines were made the whole sign would have to be replaced?
That's the logical conclusion to be made here, yes. Unless you just kill colored bars and display the name of the color.
NGOrion
So if any new lines were made the whole sign would have to be replaced?
If WMATA wants to display line colors that the signs are not presently capable of displaying, yes. I think what will happen until then, no color bars will be shown on the signs (Brown or Silver etc).
I still happen to believe the 7k car will end up getting RGB displays that will allow at least 256 colors to be displayed by the entire display.
They could just use the Orange LEDs for a Brown Line, they are close enough.
I agree with John. If WMATA had any sense*, that'd be the way they'd go.
SOLUTION:
Spend 100 M for a little tunneling and a switch to take Silver line and orange line trains off the orange line and route then towards Reagan and points south.
this will also allow trains heading north on the blue line to go to Dulles.
There is no way even if they get rid of all the blue line trains going through Rosslyn that the orange line can add the silver line capacity. PLUS it will allow seamless service from Vienna McLean et al for all those BRAC jobs going to Ft. Belvoir.
Antozilla
SOLUTION:
Spend 100 M for a little tunneling and a switch to take Silver line and orange line trains off the orange line and route then towards Reagan and points south.
this will also allow trains heading north on the blue line to go to Dulles.
There is no way even if they get rid of all the blue line trains going through Rosslyn that the orange line can add the silver line capacity. PLUS it will allow seamless service from Vienna McLean et al for all those BRAC jobs going to Ft. Belvoir.
That idea was floated as part of the Future Metrorail Capacity Needs (http://www.wmata.com/about_metro/board_of_directors/board_docs/042408_RailCapacitypresentation.pdf)(423 KB PDF file) dated 04 18 2008. See page 12.
Quote from: Sand Box John on December 08, 2008, 10:31:08 AM
Antozilla
SOLUTION:
Spend 100 M for a little tunneling and a switch to take Silver line and orange line trains off the orange line and route then towards Reagan and points south.
this will also allow trains heading north on the blue line to go to Dulles.
There is no way even if they get rid of all the blue line trains going through Rosslyn that the orange line can add the silver line capacity. PLUS it will allow seamless service from Vienna McLean et al for all those BRAC jobs going to Ft. Belvoir.
That idea was floated as part of the Future Metrorail Capacity Needs (http://www.wmata.com/about_metro/board_of_directors/board_docs/042408_RailCapacitypresentation.pdf)(423 KB PDF file) dated 04 18 2008. See page 12.
My guess is that such a track will be primarily for yard transfers and reroutes, not for regularly scheduled service.
Quote from: Antozilla on December 08, 2008, 10:10:18 AM
SOLUTION:
Spend 100 M for a little tunneling and a switch to take Silver line and orange line trains off the orange line and route then towards Reagan and points south.
this will also allow trains heading north on the blue line to go to Dulles.
There is no way even if they get rid of all the blue line trains going through Rosslyn that the orange line can add the silver line capacity. PLUS it will allow seamless service from Vienna McLean et al for all those BRAC jobs going to Ft. Belvoir.
The number of people traveling from Arlington to Alexandria is not significant enough to warrant its own rail line. The Blue Line Split makes plenty of sense and will not be nearly as inconvenient as you make it out to be.
That is not the issue, its the people going from Arlington and Alexandria to downtown.
Then why should the trains coming from Arlington be routed to the south, as you suggested?
Rush hour service is frequent enough that an additional transfer downtown is not a significant hardship, and many 7th Street stops are within walking distance of stops on the Blue/Orange lines. Those that aren't can change trains, and the Metro Center-Gallery Place connector will facilitate those transfers either further. Blue Line ridership from F-S is much lower than what is coming off the K Route from Vienna now and what will be coming off that branch once the Silver Line begins operation. The proposal makes sense even though some will be inconvenienced slightly but many more will benefit.
Arlington orange lines trains could be re routed to the south. The issue is that folsk wanting to go down town would loose half their trains or have to go to L'Enfnat and transfer and come back.
Pardon my immense ignorance...I feel I should know this...
What are y'all considering downtown DC. I thought ALL lines went there, as they are today?
Foggy Bottom, McPherson, Rosslyn, Farragut West
Quote from: Tritransit Area on December 08, 2008, 01:17:23 PM
Pardon my immense ignorance...I feel I should know this...
What are y'all considering downtown DC. I thought ALL lines went there, as they are today?
They all go downtown. The real issue is which ones go to Farragut Square as opposed to the East End or whatever it is being called nowadays.
Quote from: Antozilla on December 08, 2008, 01:50:50 PM
Foggy Bottom, McPherson, Rosslyn, Farragut West
Rosslyn isn't part of downtown DC...
Quote from: Antozilla on December 08, 2008, 12:58:15 PM
Arlington orange lines trains could be re routed to the south. The issue is that folsk wanting to go down town would loose half their trains or have to go to L'Enfnat and transfer and come back.
What benefit would sending trains from Vienna towards Pentagon provide to anyone? It wouldn't help nearly as many people as the Blue Line split will.
It allows people from Fairfax to go to Crystal City, Reagan National, and Fort Belvoir without changing connections. It allows more orange line service to Rosslyn without a new tunnel. It preserves North South metro rail service to Arlingtonians.
The Blue Line - Yellow Line split really benefits only those who ride the orange line. Or those from PG on the blue line who go to Ballston Courthouse etc.
Do you have any idea how many take Metro from Ballston to Alexandria? It is significantly less than the number who take the Metro from Ballston to Farragut Square. Face it, this connection you are proposing isn't really a high priority.
Here's my Metrorail ideas:
Get a line that could go from P.G Plaza-New Carollton-Branch Avenue-Andrews AFB then down to Charles County. Waldorf or St. Charles at least. Just my opinion so feel free to oppose.
Oren,
The purpose of the connectors shown on page 12 of the PDF I linked to is to "improve system flexibility", meaning WMATA will be able to divert trains around obstructions and maintenance projects and still be able to maintain reasonable headways.
I don't believe WMATA's intentions is to create a rainbow of new lines with never before conceived terminal pairs.
Shady Grove - New Carrollton
Shady Grove - Largo
Greenbelt - New Carrollton
Greenbelt - Largo
Vienna - Branch Avenue
Vienna - Greenbelt
Vienna - Huntington
Vienna - Franconia-Springfield
Dulles - Branch Avenue
Dulles - Greenbelt
Dulles - Huntington
Dulles - Franconia-Springfield
Vienna to Vienna loop
Dulles to Dulles loop
Huntington to Huntington loop
Franconia-Springfield to Franconia-Springfield loop
Greenbelt - Branch Avenue that loops through Rosslyn
Quote from: Sand Box John on December 09, 2008, 10:39:31 AM
Oren,
The purpose of the connectors shown on page 12 of the PDF I linked to is to "improve system flexibility", meaning WMATA will be able to divert trains around obstructions and maintenance projects and still be able to maintain reasonable headways.
I don't believe WMATA's intentions is to create a rainbow of new lines with never before conceived terminal pairs.
Shady Grove - New Carrollton
Shady Grove - Largo
Greenbelt - New Carrollton
Greenbelt - Largo
Vienna - Branch Avenue
Vienna - Greenbelt
Vienna - Huntington
Vienna - Franconia-Springfield
Dulles - Branch Avenue
Dulles - Greenbelt
Dulles - Huntington
Dulles - Franconia-Springfield
Vienna to Vienna loop
Dulles to Dulles loop
Huntington to Huntington loop
Franconia-Springfield to Franconia-Springfield loop
Greenbelt - Branch Avenue that loops through Rosslyn
Dulles to Branch-Ave? Very nice.
It's about time we get some service from Greenbelt to New Carrollton. The T16/17 ain't workin' for me. Thank god for the Greenbelt to Largo service. The Green Line looping through Rosslyn? That's odd. Shady Grove to New Carrollton. Freakin' genius!!!
BTW John, when is this all suppose to happen?
There is no way to do Shady Grove to New Carrolton as the red line does not share track with the O Line.
Exactly. All those to and from's are impossible.
Quote from: Sand Box John on December 09, 2008, 10:39:31 AM
Oren,
The purpose of the connectors shown on page 12 of the PDF I linked to is to "improve system flexibility", meaning WMATA will be able to divert trains around obstructions and maintenance projects and still be able to maintain reasonable headways.
I don't believe WMATA's intentions is to create a rainbow of new lines with never before conceived terminal pairs.
Shady Grove - New Carrollton
Shady Grove - Largo
Greenbelt - New Carrollton
Greenbelt - Largo
Vienna - Branch Avenue
Vienna - Greenbelt
Vienna - Huntington
Vienna - Franconia-Springfield
Dulles - Branch Avenue
Dulles - Greenbelt
Dulles - Huntington
Dulles - Franconia-Springfield
Vienna to Vienna loop
Dulles to Dulles loop
Huntington to Huntington loop
Franconia-Springfield to Franconia-Springfield loop
Greenbelt - Branch Avenue that loops through Rosslyn
I agree with you, but John A seems to think otherwise...
Antozilla
There is no way to do Shady Grove to New Carrolton as the red line does not share track with the O Line.
NGOrion
Exactly. All those to and from's are impossible.
You all need to take a second look at the map on page 12 Future Metrorail Capacity Needs (http://www.wmata.com/about_metro/board_of_directors/board_docs/042408_RailCapacitypresentation.pdf)(423 KB PDF file) that I posted earlier in this thread.
WMATA wants to replace the existing A&C connector with a flying junction.
Here is a system track schematic (http://mysite.verizon.net/cambronj/wmata/sys_schematic_2030.gif) based on the map on page 12 in the Future Metrorail Capacity Needs (http://www.wmata.com/about_metro/board_of_directors/board_docs/042408_RailCapacitypresentation.pdf).
be** typo.
orionvii271
be** typo.
FYI, there are edit function buttons that become visible on the posts you make. (Quote, Modify, Delete) You can correct or add more content after making your original post by clicking the modify button. You can delete a post by clicking the delete button
Quote from: Sand Box John on December 12, 2008, 08:37:12 AM
orionvii271
be** typo.
FYI, there are edit function buttons that become visible on the posts you make. (Quote, Modify, Delete) You can correct or add more content after making your original post by clicking the modify button. You can delete a post by clicking the delete button
I see thank you.
I'm new to this fourm stuff. Thanks for informing me.