Here's a way to use my (second) 777th post: to create a placeholder thread for transit in the skies. After the massive now-deleted tangent on the BWI/Logan wars, the lack of nonstop flights from Dulles to Tel Aviv/Hawaii, and resorting the terminals at DCA in the August Observations thread, it's only fair.
Post away guys! I know I'll have stuff to eventually say :)
At least in the case of Hawaii, the number of airports with a direct east coast link is two. There are no direct flights from Miami, Charlotte, Philadelphia, Boston, or Washington. According to Wikipedia, over half of the flights to/from Honolulu operate between Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, and Vancouver. It isn't like there is service from Hawaii to practically every major east coast airport except Washington, which is the case for Tel Aviv (and Boston, I don't think there would be much demand for a Charlotte-Tel Aviv route).
When we went to Hawaii, both my wife and I didn't want a direct flight. Nothing against direct flights, but our feeling is that if we have to fly that long... we'd like a stopover somewhere just to break up the monotony. Ideally, we would've connected at LAX, but since we flew on Continental we went through IAH. That's where we got to fly CO's flight 001 & 002.
Quote from: WMATAGMOAGH on August 06, 2010, 03:37:53 PM
At least in the case of Hawaii, the number of airports with a direct east coast link is two. There are no direct flights from Miami, Charlotte, Philadelphia, Boston, or Washington. According to Wikipedia, over half of the flights to/from Honolulu operate between Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, and Vancouver. It isn't like there is service from Hawaii to practically every major east coast airport except Washington, which is the case for Tel Aviv (and Boston, I don't think there would be much demand for a Charlotte-Tel Aviv route).
I thought USAir still had a seasonal route from CLT-HNL.
There have been rumblings that when Hawaiian Airlines gets their Airbus A330's (purchased to add capacity to Hawaii-Asia routes and to make it past the Rockies) up and running that they'd look at serving some East Coast airports with JFK, Logan, and either Dulles or BWI on the short list. One idea would have the current long haul 767's sent to the mainland and a "scissor hub" out west to allow a one-stop transfer to Honolulu, Hilo, or Maui. Might be a good idea to do.
I didn't know USAirways ever had CLT-HNL, but now that they have a hub in Phoenix, I'm not surprised they no longer go from CLT (or so says Wikipedia). I did read in the flight magazine that USAirways is starting seasonal service between Philadelphia and Anchorage, though.
Wayne, I generally prefer direct flights (in the case of flying to Tel Aviv, you either wind up with a 1 hour puddle jumper on the east coast or a 2-5 hour long flight between some European airport and Tel Aviv), but you are right, there are advantages to having a break. How long would a direct flight from here to Honolulu be? 10 hours?
After a "simple" LAX-BWI WN non-stop flight in the Spring of '07 in which I arrived sore and hungry, I've grown to elect a mid point rest on any transcon. I can do DEN without much problem, but I even like a rest on a trip to PHX.
With that in mind, I would NEVER want to do a non-stop to HNL if I didn't have to. Like Wayne, I'd prefer a west coast stopover to minimize that last leg, but I'm pretty partial to CO so I'd do that IAH-HNL assuming the plane has the usual cool entertainment that many CO planes have.
Tangentializing this general purpose thread, I've never really flown in anything exciting such as a 747, just the usual assortment of 737's, 757's, 320's, and MD style planes ranging from the DC94 to the 717.
Adding further general chatter, here's my general impression of the carriers I've flown:
Southwest: Increasingly not the cheapest in my searches, but the free baggage and no-stress credit cancels are great pros in my book. Open seating and check in tires me. Same-old-same fleet bores the buff in me.
Airtran: Best airline to find last minute flights on, though the seat selection surcharge is a bit tacky. Pushy Credit Card sellers at airport and little ads on the seat backs are irritating as well. I do like the 2-3 seating in the 717s.
United: Never a bad flight so far, and the 757s are a nice ride. Some of their grey planes look a tired hot mess though.
Delta: Most comprehensive legacy carrier at BWI, but I've only used them twice. Nothing memorable, nothing horrible.
Continental: Best of what's left for now in my book. Clean, sharp fleet, good entertainment options on a lot of the planes, and for the moment, free meals still served in domestic coach. Love how the FF program transfers to AMTK. Every transcon almost earns me an NEC round trip!
American, US Airways, Jet Blue, and Virgin America are still unknowns to me.
Quote from: btconet on August 06, 2010, 08:50:27 PM
Adding further general chatter, here's my general impression of the carriers I've flown:
Southwest: Increasingly not the cheapest in my searches, but the free baggage and no-stress credit cancels are great pros in my book. Open seating and check in tires me. Same-old-same fleet bores the buff in me.
Airtran: Best airline to find last minute flights on, though the seat selection surcharge is a bit tacky. Pushy Credit Card sellers at airport and little ads on the seat backs are irritating as well. I do like the 2-3 seating in the 717s.
United: Never a bad flight so far, and the 757s are a nice ride. Some of their grey planes look a tired hot mess though.
Delta: Most comprehensive legacy carrier at BWI, but I've only used them twice. Nothing memorable, nothing horrible.
Continental: Best of what's left for now in my book. Clean, sharp fleet, good entertainment options on a lot of the planes, and for the moment, free meals still served in domestic coach. Love how the FF program transfers to AMTK. Every transcon almost earns me an NEC round trip!
American, US Airways, Jet Blue, and Virgin America are still unknowns to me.
I'll toss mine in:
Delta: Cut my flying teeth on them as I have relatives outside Atlanta. Service is okay but being the pioneers of change fees, first/second checked bag fees, and using regional partners to cover long trips lowers them in my book. Their large MD-88 fleet also can also feel quite cramped.
American: Flew them on one round trip. Save for charging for snacks, not that bad. At least they give you the entire can of soda and even economy has the fancy winged headrests (and DC power ports too).
Southwest: I've only taken them on short trips (from BWI to Albany, Buffalo, Boston, and Pittsburgh) but their service is good and the lack of change/checked bag fees is really nice. Don't know if I'd want to do them for a longer haul if a second option with IFE and such existed. I have a free roundtrip burning a hole, anyone have a good transit city idea for a man and his girlfriend to go on? :)
Airtran: If they're cheapest, I'll fly them and I like the XM radio and wifi. I don't like their begging people to get credit cards, the seat selection fees, and that they totally gypped me of a bonus frequent flyer credit for rebooking that I shouldn't have lost. Some of their terminals can be a hike (DCA) or a hovel (Boston Logan).
JetBlue: I've only flown them to/from Boston, but the unlimited snacks/drinks, DirecTV, and XM radio are big pluses and would matter if I had to book a longer flight going against Southwest or a legacy.
Pre-Delta takeover Northwest: Outside of the flying museum called the DC-9, nothing much to write home about. Those planes have already seen upgrades after Delta came in.
Quote from: Scrabbleship on August 06, 2010, 09:38:35 PM
Southwest: I've only taken them on short trips (from BWI to Albany, Buffalo, Boston, and Pittsburgh) but their service is good and the lack of change/checked bag fees is really nice. Don't know if I'd want to do them for a longer haul if a second option with IFE and such existed. I have a free roundtrip burning a hole, anyone have a good transit city idea for a man and his girlfriend to go on? :)
Without a doubt, San Francisco. Try to make your change at DEN or MDW if you can. San Francisco would get the most bang for your round trip buck, plenty of enjoyable transit, splendid vistas, and lots of good "bonding" things to do in town. Where else can you ride the streetcar from the center of town out to the lovely Pacific Ocean coast in about 40 minutes!?!?
And if you like watching planes, SFO has lots of variety coming through!
Thanks to me going to school in Indiana, I fly back and forth between the midwest and the northeast pretty frequency over the past 5 years. Here is my pitch about the airlines...
AirTran: Often the cheapest option, especially at the last second. Their 737s have comfortable Recaro seats but I cannot stand their 717 interior. Their xm radio is a nice plus, but I hate their fee for picking your own seat. I usually just chance it and let them assign a seat for me, then try to change it at the counter if possible.
American Airlines: I've only flown them one roundtrip between IND and SAN, I had some sort of MD80. It was nothing exciting about them, no frills whatsoever.
Asiana: I flew them back in 1995 from JFK to HKJ (I believe we did the checkerboard landing into Kai Tak) via ICN and Anchorage. I was 7 at the time so I don't remember much. The flight attendants seemed to be very nice, one of them gave me a lego set, and they constantly warmed up milk and put it into a bottle for my infant brother at the time. I flew on a 747 for both main legs, and something smaller from ICN to HKG.
ATA: I believe I flew them once before they stopped doing scheduled passenger flights, I had an ex-United 737. I think I booked the flight through a codeshare with Southwest. I don't remember much about the service itself except that they gave me the entire can without me asking.
Continental: They are supposedly the "upscale luxury" of all domestic carriers, however my experience with them had been average. No more frills than American Airlines or ATA. I did fly them using a buddy pass, but even paying just the fees and taxes was still pretty pricey.
Delta: They always seem to be the midrange option as far as price. I flew them roundtrip between IND and LAS earlier this year. I love their IFE, with on demand video and audio and all that. The audio feature was pretty neat since it allowed me to create my own playlist out of all the songs they offered. The downside is that a lot of the premium features such as movies and games cost $5 to use. On my way back from Vegas, my flight was overbooked so I gave up my seat in exchange for a $400 voucher, they also gave me a $7 meal voucher and put me up in a hotel which was even farther from the airport than the hotel I had originally stayed at on the strip. I still have yet to use my $400 voucher.
Independence Air: I loved this airline. I flew from BOS to IAD for $39. They had an interesting selection of drinks including Arizona Teas, which they served by cups out of a tray. The "hot towel" service seemed like wet wipes that were thrown in the microwave, but it was still a nice touch.
Jetblue: The live DirectTV service is nice, however I wish there was more to their IFE like an audio selection. They are VERY generous with drinks and snacks, the blue chips are surprisingly good. Their prices have always been on the higher end, which is why I haven't flown them as much as I would like.
Northwest (pre-Delta): Always one of the cheapest options. The service isn't all that to rave about but I love their fleet of Dc-9s. As old as those planes are, they have a very modern interior. I even got to experience the powerback at DTW on a Dc-9, something I don't think they do very often nowadays.
Southwest: I have NEVER been found to find "cheap" flights on Southwest, they are always seem to be more expensive than many of the legacy carriers. Their boarding process is kinda to pick up on, I don't really care much for it, nor do I care for their unassigned seating. I do like the casual atmosphere of their employees though, none of that "chopstick in the hair" flight attendants with the fake attitudes.
United: This is probably my favorite domestic airline. On flights between IAD and ORD, I often get 757s, 767s, and 777s. Whenever I fly on the widebodies, they always have blankets and pillows placed on every seat. Their IFE is very limited, it has about 7 or 8 channels of selection, which seem to be running off of tapes. Channel 9 audio is an awesome feature though, it lets you listen to a live audio feed of ATC.
Thank you very much. I sincerely welcome the addition of this topic to our blog! If any of you actually collect commercial aircraft memorabilia you might wish to know that the annual Airliners Magazine collectors show takes place next weekend in Newark NJ at the Robert Treat Hotel. I attended the show a few years ago when it was in Tysons Corner and found some interesting collecible items.
The 2010 Airliners International - New York
The World's largest gathering of airline enthusiasts will meet in the greater New York City area, between August 12, 13, 14, 2010 (Thursday, Friday and Saturday) at the newly remodeled Robert Treat Hotel in downtown Newark, New Jersey. You don't need to be a member of WAHS or any particular organization to participate in Airliners International 2010 or attend the trade show - you only need to have an interest in commercial aviation! Trade Show Hours - Open To The Public Friday, August 13th 3:00pm to 10:00pm Saturday, August 14th 9:00am to 5:00pm One Day Pass- $10 per person Two Day Pass $15 per person Children Under 12 Free For more information visit www.ai2010nyc.com [/t] |
Jason: If you go to San Francisco, my suggestion would be to look into flights to OAK. It is cheaper and less prone to delays due to better weather on that side of the bay and fewer movements overall. I flew JetBlue IAD-OAK nonstop, and back in 2007, I got a fare on UAL that was only 20 dollars more than JetBlue (though the pricing on that may have been a bit quirky since either I booked UAL codeshare to fly YVR-SFO and then JetBlue one way from OAK to IAD, or I had the "one way" YVR-SFO/OAK-IAD ticket on United, never mind that my "one way" ticket included a 30something hour layover and change of airports in the San Francisco area. Don't you love airline pricing? The BART air link shuttle bus or whatever it is called works fine, though the area by the BART station isn't the greatest place to just hang out.
Like I said elsewhere in this thread, I try to fly Star Alliance as much as possible since that is where my mlies are and they have so much service in the DC area. But here are my opinions:
USAirways: I vowed not to fly them after a few too many hours long delays flying DCA-ITH my first few years at Cornell, and eventually started driving the route because at least then, I knew it would take 6 hours or less. Never knew what might happen in the air. I find they are decent on international flights because need to compete against other airlines, including European carriers with much better service, but they managed to screw up my kosher meal on my CLT-GIG flight last month. Fortunately, good service on the return saved them yet another letter of complaint. I might also not dislike them so much if they made it next to impossible to redeem travel vouchers. I got at least 200 dollars in vouchers from them that I could never use for all my various troubles because they only seem to be valid on days of the week not ending in "y", among other restrictions.
United: Definitely my airline of choice, and the first airline I look at to see if they go where I want to go. Unfortunately, they don't have service to TLV until the merger goes through, and even then, it will be from EWR, otherwise they would be practically perfect in my book. Their various codeshares make itinerary planning to nearly everywhere I've wanted to go very easy (I avoid puddle jumpers and dislike changing planes) and their service on international flights is quite good. (Notice I don't fly domestically if I don't have to...)
Delta: Was my airline of choice once upon a time, I've flew them SYR-ATL-MSY back in 2006 and they had to reactivate my FF mile account it had been so long since I had flown with them, flew again TLV-JFK-BOS/JFK-TLV on a dirt cheap open jaw ticket last year, service on both the international and domestic legs was fine, though the Israeli woman next to me started to complain from before we took off that the airline sucked and she would never fly them again. Go figure.
Southwest: Flew them last year for the first time in ages to get from BOS to DC last year as part of the aforementioned open jaw trip made on Delta (AMTK got me from WAS to NYC for the return to TLV if anyone is curious). I also find they aren't always the cheapest, and I'm often willing to pay more (up until a point) for direct flights. I also don't like the open seating and need to check in super early, get to the airport super early, stand on line to board, hurry up and wait deal that they put you through.
JetBlue: Flew them once out to OAK and back. Found the service to be fine. Got sick of watching TV after awhile though. Would certainly consider them again, but they rarely seem to go where I want to.
Independence Air: Flew them twice from SYR to IAD, no complaints, but not surprised they went under. How much money can you make when you charge 10 cents per flight?
Haven't flown many other US based airlines much in recent memory. Flew ATA once, don't really remember it. Never flew American. Last flew Continental in 2005 because we got rebooked due to a delay by some British or Scottish carrier.
I've flown a fair number of international airlines lately.
El Al is my favorite. Good service (the FAs look great, too, if you are into Israelis), only airline where I don't need to order special meals and feel that their security measures are actually effective and not just security theater. Love the fact that the passengers are generally relaxed and look forward to traveling and getting to where they are going.
Swiss: The only airline I know of that had a refund voucher ready for me at the airport when I was denied boarding (though other European airlines should do the same) and had my meal requests made for the substitute airline. Can you imagine that in the US? Also, a huge selection on the personal entertainment system when I did actually get to fly them as planned.
EasyJet: The SWA of Europe, though I find them to be OK. I could do without the cattle call boarding we had at Gatwick in a room with practically no air conditioning, but overall it was fine. Unlike their competitor, RyanAir, they actually fly to major airports, which is good. (I don't think I'd fly RyanAir, I've heard too many horror stories.) But like SWA, their prices aren't necessarily the cheapest, and if there is no direct flight available, they don't book connecting flights (you can book multiple one ways, but if you miss your flight, that is your problem, not theirs).
Vueling: A Spanish based low cost carrier, also quite good though they have endless, pointless announcements. I don't care who is flying the plane, and don't need to hear it in both Spanish and English.
British Airways: Lots of people like them for some reason, I'm not a fan. I think it might be because the supposedly super comfortable seats are not designed for someone my height, forcing me into a straight jacket almost. Then imagine sitting in it for a flight across the Atlantic.
QuoteTangentializing this general purpose thread, I've never really flown in anything exciting such as a 747, just the usual assortment of 737's, 757's, 320's, and MD style planes ranging from the DC94 to the 717.
You aren't missing much by never having been on the 747. I often find the 3-4-3 seating to be overly cramped and the boarding/deplaning takes a long time with all those people. I prefer the 777 and 767 for long haul flights, and also prefer Boeings over Airbuses. I'm no aviation expert, but the former seem to have a much more solid construction than the latter.
Ray,
When you next fly Airtran, you can simply visit their site at T-24 hours and choose your seat at that point prior to it being "assigned." Tends to make for the easiest, cheapest option. One other seeming plus to Airtran to me is that BC is pretty cheap and can actually be had for 4 FF Points.
Speaking of upgrades, CO tends to rank high in my book in that they'll offer segment upgrades to First Class on check in for between $59 and $99. I took up an offer of a $79 FC upgrade on a IAH-PHX leg of a trip this spring, and it was the best flight experience I've ever had. I don't know what you rode when you flew CO, but the 752's have a great IFE system that shows you exactly where you are with a satellite map, a great plus when I took an LAX-IAH flight.
I've enjoyed the Channel 9 audio on United as well, though I find the droning often lulls me to sleep!
The one airline I'm still interested in flying is Virgin America. It definitely looks a tad more inviting than the pedestrian interiors of a SWA 737.
Oren, some day I'll fly a wide body AC. Every so often they'll pop up as itinerary options when I'm looking up flights, but it seems they're always either red-eyes, or siginicantly pricier than regular body itineraries.
I've been lucky enough to have flown on commerical jets since I was about 6 y/o. So, I can remember when Delta and Eastern were just little guys next to the mighty Pan Am and TWA.
In those days we flew on plenty of B727s and L1011s with Delta. I flew on Eastern a few times also back in the day. I've flown on many of today's (and some yesterday) various aircraft (B717, B727, B737, B757, B767, A300, A310, A319-21, DC9, MD80/88. Since haven't crossed any oceans yet, so I haven't flown on any B747, B777, MD11, A330 (and so on) aircraft.
Growing up I always identified with Delta and Eastern as the airlines I flew on most, LGA and JFK as my home airfields and B727 and L1011. For some reason, I've managed to fly on numerous B767s, mostly with Delta and I've come to like these widebodies.
Nowaways, I try to stick with Delta as that's where I had the most mileage, but the truth is that I tend to go with whoever has the best prices. I've really taken a liking to Southwest. Their prices are not always the best, but in my experience their fares are often better or at least competitive with the others. The open seating thing is fine with me and not being fleeced for taking along a bag is nice too. Obviously the fleet is not too exciting, but at least I know it won't be a turboprop.
On occasion we fly with CO and I'm always happy when we do. I love that the condition of their aircraft is often pristine. We had flew to Hawaii on their B767 (a 763 and 764ER) and they were quite comfy and appeared to be in very good condition. Bright lighing, supportive seats cushions that aren't in need of replacement and clean rest rooms.
I'm one who enjoys flying and always looking forward to my next trip.
I enjoyed reading about your flying experiences but so far you all have only written about your flights on pure jet aircraft. I'm one of those aircraft enthusiasts who believe that you really have not flown at all until you fly on propeller driven aircraft. I have flown on just about all of the pure jet aircraft you have mentioned and I have found those flights to be relatively boring compared to the propeller aircraft. The propeller driven aircraft are slower but they fly lower and you can see more of the terrain below. They also make the most wonderful sounds! For those of you who are interested I recommend choosing flights on the following turboprop aircraft that are currently in service: Shorts 360, Saab 2000, Saab 340, Embraer Brasilia (EMB-120), Dash 8 (Bombardier), ATR 42, ATR 72.
By the way, if you saw the film SALT, the strange looking private airplane (fuselage mounted turboprop engines with rear-facing propellers) that was used in one part of the film is a Piaggio Avanti, an actual aircraft that is made in Italy.
I've always wanted to take an itinerary with a Dash 8 flight but for some reason I never bit. I have flown a Piper Cheerokee (?) on two occasions out of Purdue airport, that was surprisingly fun even with an old raggedy plane.
I will go out of my way to not fly smaller regional jets. I cut my flying teeth on the CRJ on way too many flights from small airports and after a nearly 3-hour long flight on one from Albany to Atlanta I threw in the towel. On the other hand, I'm in love with the Embrarer E-190 series.
First mainline flight was on a Delta 727 which was already dated in the mid 90's. Did two 767 runs when Delta ran them out of Hartford, having an entire center row of 4 seats to myself was nice. Purposely flew Northwest back in 2005 so I could get a DC-9 ride and found the oldness to be better than the bland MD-88's that Delta bought in bulk. Have ridden too many 737's and they kinda become a blur though if I could put Delta's newest seatback TV's into American's seats with Southwest's hospitality and Airtran's XM radio...
I get to ride my first Airbus (320) next month when I come back from Atlanta. It'll be good to contrast to the many 737's I've ridden.
I've always tried to avoid turboprops (and any regional aircraft0 whenever possible. I've flown on a Dehaviland(sp?) and a SAAB at some point. In all I've probably been on turboprops about 3-4 times. Each time I couldn't wait to get off. I would argee with WMAVeteran about the views since they don't fly as high. I also liked that they were pretty quick when moving around on the ground. I guess I just got used to the jets and never quite took to the turboprops.
I'm saving my first time on a turboprop for when Porter Airlines inevitably enters DCA after Toronto City Centre/Island/Billy Bishop gets US Customs Preclearance. The complimentary wine and beer (and wide seats/pitch) will numb out the turboprop pain as would the cost savings vs. an Air Canada CRJ.
I think most airlines are phasing out the turboprops anyway. IIRC, USAirways (or rather, its regional affiliates) only has about 10 left in the fleet.
Those planes operated a bulk of the flights to and from Ithaca. I personally wasn't a huge fan of them.
Actually turboprops (or propjets) are enjoying a resurgence (especially in Europe and outside of the United States). The latest iteration of a turboprop aircraft is the Dash 8 Q-4000 that has been well received. It appears that over certain routes the turboprop is more fuel efficient and requires less maintanence than a turbojet aircraft. Keep in mind that a turboprop is powered by a turbine that turns a propeller rather than a jet fan. It is essentially a jet engine with a propeller and it uses jet fuel.
Back in the day, I was fortunate enough to ride Lockheed Super Constellations (Eastern Airlines) that were powered by 4 piston engines. Takeoff was very dramatic (everything including the fillings in your teeth shook) and the noise volume in the cabin was incredible but you knew you were flying!
There are reports that jetBlue will be going into Terminal A at DCA when it starts service from there in November. With the exception of the outcast Air Canada, this solidifies A as being the (misfit) terminal of low-cost carriers and I think Air Canada gets back to B when that terminal has its inevitable post-United/Continental merger shakeup.
I just returned from a roundtrip flight between Washington Dulles and Anchorage on Delta airlines where every flight left on time and the two east bound flights arrived early. The flight had two legs: one leg flew from Dulles to Minneapolis/St. Paul (about 2 hours) and the second leg involved a change of planes from Minneapolis/St. Paul to Anchorage (about 5 hours). The Dulles-Minneapolis/St. Paul segment was flown by Embraer 175 aircraft operated by a Delta affiliate while the Minneapolis/St. Paul segment was operated by Delta's own Boeing 757 aircraft. The Embraer on the outbound flight was painted in Delta's new (post merger) colors but the Embraer on the inbound flight was still painted in Northwest colors. The Boeing on the outbound flight was a 757-200 while the Boeing on the inbound flight was a 757-200ER (with winglets). Both of these aircraft were painted in Delta's new colors. The Embraer aircraft had better, wider and more comfortable seating than the 757 aircraft.
So any thoughts on the WN purchase of FL?
Canyon Blue 717s?
WN reaches ATL at last...
BWI gets over 70% of its domestic traffic on a single carrier?
Quote from: btconet on September 27, 2010, 08:59:50 PM
So any thoughts on the WN purchase of FL?
Canyon Blue 717s?
WN reaches ATL at last...
BWI gets over 70% of its domestic traffic on a single carrier?
WN gets into DCA which they've lusted after since they decided major airports weren't that bad. This is as big of a game changer, only problem is where do you fly with the slots they have from FL. ATL/MCO/FLL stay, but do you keep MKE or do you move that to MDW and fill a hole that ATA left when it folded?
If this passes muster, I have a feeling 3 things will happen.
1: Since WN is inheriting Airtran's international routes (Cancun, etc.), I can see BWI relieving ATL for routes to the Carribean as well as being the jumping-off point for WN to try some routes north if this deal doesn't get WestJet back in bed with them.
2: JetBlue will build their operations between their current "protect our turf at BOS" levels. The three times I've flown them to/from BOS on the E190, all 3 times had full loads and I think with FL out of the way they can fill some additional Florida capacity and beat WN to the punch for routes to the west coast. I think this can be supported even better when they tried this at Dulles as a gift after Independence Air went under.
3: Annapolis will come out with some scheme to try to get someone to fill the parts of the BWI that aren't WN's palace in Terminal A/B. Reality is that they'd probably end up moving the legacies to D and mothballing C since they've already danced with the international oddballs and the remaining domestics are either at DCA or Dulles; the two exceptions are the aforementioned WestJet (rumored to expand to BWI when they were exploring codeshares with WN) or Hawaiian (when they start east coast operations when more A330's come in).
Besides raving about how those 717's will be more comfortable with WN's seats and will look MUCH sharper (Ravens/Falcons/Bruins/Brewers logo jets aside) in Canyon Blue, a story about the difference between FL and WN. I had weather delays with both -- FL leaving BOS due to freak early snows, WN at BUF due to BWI being shut down due to summer storms. WN rebooked me as a standby on an earlier flight and gave us water/soda/snacks and ordered out for pizza right as I boarded. FL, in Boston's HORRIBLE "high C" gates, did nothing at all over 2.5 hours of combined gate and tarmac delays. Not even an extra drink/snack service as we waited through deicing follies.
FL was good to visit my relatives at ATL/friends in CLT and got me to MKE for my Chicago trip (hi Cre!) so I could take the Cap Limited home. Outside the wifi and the business class seating, they were eh at best. My FL-loyalist Dad who loved their business class the one time he took it said he won't miss it given my stories of great trips on WN.
I've never flown Airtran and rarely fly Southwest. While this might be a better merger for many air travelers in the US (I find these mergers are rarely actually truly a good thing for the consumer), I'm not so sure those of us in the DC area are really going to benefit. Airtran doesn't have that many flights out of DCA, which is heavily restricted in terms of the number of operations there and I don't see those limits disappearing any time soon. There is going to be far less competition at BWI (not that there is a whole lot there right now). Maybe some domestic travelers at IAD will benefit due to increased competition on some routes, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.
Quote from: WMATAGMOAGH on September 28, 2010, 07:29:24 AM
I've never flown Airtran and rarely fly Southwest. While this might be a better merger for many air travelers in the US (I find these mergers are rarely actually truly a good thing for the consumer), I'm not so sure those of us in the DC area are really going to benefit. Airtran doesn't have that many flights out of DCA, which is heavily restricted in terms of the number of operations there and I don't see those limits disappearing any time soon. There is going to be far less competition at BWI (not that there is a whole lot there right now). Maybe some domestic travelers at IAD will benefit due to increased competition on some routes, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.
DCA actually has a bunch to gain from this merger even with its slot limits. Anyone who knows the operations of both airlines could put money down on MKE being probably drawn down with MDW not far away and DCA-MDW did well for ATA when they were alive. WN goes in on DCA-MDW and they shake things up with AA and UA doing DCA-ORD.
Dulles is a "boutique" airport for WN (it's their only station with no flights under 500nm, no doubt to protect BWI) which has been sliced down to only two destinations (MDW, DEN). FL only has two destinations there to begin with (ATL, MCO; FL ran WN out of MCO). I think those four destination can be blended together with limited conflict but little change to the current situation.
On the 10-13 (depending on time of year) routes WN and FL overlap at BWI, there will be losers though much of that might be an excess capacity purge which can be better deployed elsewhere. Outside of A/B, the rest of BWI might lose out and I wouldn't be shocked to see what I said earlier happen in which C gets mothballed and they try to find someone, anyone, to fill the rest of the space.
The big wildcard in this is what jetBlue does. They've been paring away their Dulles operation lately, their DCA operation no doubt will keep a lot of BWI leakage from DC in the area, and they could play spoiler to all this at BWI by adding routes to Florida, the West Coast (which has been hot-and-cold for WN at BWI), and possibly the Caribbean and markets with good O&D from this area (HOU, BUF, ORD).
I've never flown on AirTran, but from what I hear, this merger can only be better for AirTran regulars. I like that Southwest will now go into ATL and have some international destinations (including the Carribean), but there are some things I like about them that I hope won't go away.
In my experience Southwest is good for the shorts hops (BWI-MDW, BWI-PIT etc). I like that they're different from the rest and I think it often makes them attractive over other airlines. I did hear a couple of people being interviewed on the news complaining about the open-seating policy. That's one of the things I like about Southwest. In the world of stuffy corporate types, it's refreshing that Southwest has a relaxed way about them, and I hope this doesn't go away.
I am curious about how Southwest will handle the fact that they will no longer have a 100% B737 fleet.
AirTran regulars are hot and cold on the merger. Let's say there are a lot of people who fit into either (or both) of the following who are not happy with this news:
1: People who like that Airtran has assigned seating (though for all but a center seat you have to pay a fee to reserve) and a Business class section (with cheap upgrades) and that both bring some civility vs. other LCC's.
2: People who have never flown Southwest and buy into all the stereotypes of "cattle-call" boarding and goofy flight attendants and liken it to "a Greyhound Bus in the sky".
And some people have concern over two other things.
3: Airtran has Wifi on all flights while Southwest is starting a slow rollout of Wifi to not be completed until 2010. At the same time, Airtran's system is land-based while Southwest's will be satellite-based.
4: Fears that Southwest will ditch the Sirius XM radio at every seat which is very nice to have even on a shorter length flight.
AirTran is a good airline, however as I've flown Southwest and jetBlue more I see them more as a mini-legacy with cheaper fares than their peers. The checked bag fees, scant snack/drink service, and the tight seating pitch in coach all remind me more of, say, Delta than Southwest. A Coke Zero and a tiny bag of pretzels for a 2-hour BWI-MKE flight vs. 2 cups of coffee, a water, and 2 bags of peanuts for a 1:10 BWI-ALB flight, which looks better?
The SWA boarding procedure IS a cattle call as far as I'm concerned. I'll admit it has gotten better over time, since they've gone from the huge groups to having everyone line up in order, but I find it stressful and inconvenient. I'd rather just book a seat in advance, possibly even pay for the privledge of buying a certain seat in advance (as a fairly tall guy who finds plane seats to be uncomfortable, I'm willing to pay for that up until a point), and the knowledge I'm going to get an aisle before showing up at the airport.
I've flown many airlines in many different countries and I'm pretty sure I've seen every boarding scheme imaginable. SWA and EasyJet, both of whom use open seating, are my least favorite, without question (even though I managed to get aisles at the front of both EasyJet flights I took without paying for the privilege of pre-boarding).
Quote from: WMATAGMOAGH on September 30, 2010, 02:17:14 PM
I've flown many airlines in many different countries and I'm pretty sure I've seen every boarding scheme imaginable. SWA and EasyJet, both of whom use open seating, are my least favorite, without question (even though I managed to get aisles at the front of both EasyJet flights I took without paying for the privilege of pre-boarding).
In terms of boarding process at the gate, I'd take Southwest's system of places in line to be a lot more orderly than the zones of the legacies and Airtran. Everytime I've boarded a legacy, there is the inevitable pack of Zone 3/4 people congregating right as they board First Class/Elites and so on down the line. The assigned place in line system is a lot more orderly and Southwest's gate areas look a lot less messy, IMO. A good balance is what jetBlue does in boarding the rear-most rows first and working their way to the front.
The whole "check in as close to 24 hours before your flight as possible" game on Southwest, in all honesty, grew on me after a while and I found that I could still land an aisle seat with a boarding position well into the B's and a checkin time many hours later.
Again, I've seen it all in terms of ways to board a plane, and it doesn't matter what system is used. A study actually showed that an El Al style free for all (my LY flight from JFK to TLV had preboarding followed immediately by ALL ROWS and this was for a sold out 747) is faster than boarding the plane back to front, and I'd say in my undocumented observations, that the El Al style free for all certainly doesn't seem to take any longer than a more orderly system. The best system as shown by the aforementioned study is described here: http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/WhosCounting/story?id=6562852&page=1.
I didn't realize last time I flew SWA I could check in and then "lose" my boarding pass and just get it at the airport, I could have been in the first group easily otherwise. But you get what you pay for. I like having a seat assignment.
I tend to agree with Oren that there's a certain amount of serenity to knowing where you'll sit the instant you book that ticket.
Travelling, particularly by air, is an anxious experience in that you have TSA regs to worry with, weather disruptions that can leave you stranded at a connection point, as well as the anxiety of hoping your booking at a distant destination didn't get fouled up. The whole thing of "first come first serve" at T-24 hours is annoying, while the upcharge to "earlybird" is more annoying to me (I'd rather pay Airtran $6 to pick a seat at booking than to pay SW $10 to get front of plane privlege). And inevitably, even if you get an "A" pass, there's always someone who, honestly or not, somehow doesn't understand the letter prefix and clips their B42 in front of your A43.
That said, it is better than the days of the simple A/B/C alone passes, where the "B" pass could mean "aisle-window in middle" or "middle seat" depending on if you wanted to sit on the floor at the front of the B zone 60 minutes before boarding or not!
The differences between airlines in coach are becoming so moot now that price is the only object. I used to be willing to pay a bit more to ride CO since they fed you, assigned seats, and offered free check baggage for card holders. I used to like AT for their low late fares and the ability to buy a seat or pick it at check in. Now, it seems there will only be SW with open seating and free bags, and other carriers with assigned seating and paid check bags. Even the CO meal vanishes on October 12th.
Adam,
You hit it on the nose I think. I find flying to be extremely stressful, why add in the uncertainty of whether I'll get an aisle seat or not, especially for a long flight (though the last flight I took, JFK-TLV 5 weeks ago, I had a middle seat on the side of a 747, 3-4-3 layout, because I bought the ticket a week before flying, and fortunately, I had no problems despite the length of the flight)?
I still am loyal to certain airlines. I try to fly Star Alliance partners when I can so I can get my miles in one place and then upgrade or get free travel. I will pay more for a direct flight or to minimize layovers, again, it reduces the chance of having something go wrong as a result of a connection. SWA might be low cost and no frill, and that is fine with me. I don't have to buy their tickets or fly with them however, and generally choose not to.
CO was still offering domestic meal service? When I flew USAirways DCA-CLT-GIG back in July, I called the airline to request a Kosher meal, and when I got to an agent and said I was calling to request a meal, it sounded like she had not heard that question in a long time. She immediately asked where I was flying to, and once I said Rio de Janeiro, was quite helpful in getting me to the proper department to make my request.