DC Area Transit Zone

So Metro's released their list of stations to possibly close on the weekends with some surprises. Though Morgan Boulevard was a given, The choice of back-to-back stations, one of which trying to sow the seeds of gentrification, however, is a bit head scratching. Everyone knows that even with little ridership between New Carrollton and Stadium Armory, that long stretch between Landover and Minnesota Ave's going to be a haul.

I'm curious about what everyone would pick to close if it was their choice? I've made a little poll where everyone can pick 3 and in traditional Metro fairness I've picked 3 from each jurisdiction. I'll get a lot of heat for Pentagon and the DoD would probably never let it happen, however it is within walking distance of Pentagon City (barely) and just because I'm trying to be far doesn't mean it has to be 100% realistic. ;)

Question Why is Deanwood an Option?

Quote from: Southeastern Annex4421 on March 04, 2010, 08:04:55 PM
Question Why is Deanwood an Option?

Because the 3 Metro proposed to close were Morgan Blvd, Cheverly, and Deanwood.

Your attempt to be "fair" is a bit silly, Pentagon is not really within walking distance of Pentagon City, and what are you going to do with all the buses that serve the transit center at the Pentagon?  Stations you can make an argument for closing are ones in the center of the city that are surrounded by federal offices and are largely empty on weekends and have nearby alternatives (i.e. Judiciary Square, I was once on a train there on Thanksgiving Day IIRC en route to New York City and there wasn't a soul in the station, also McPherson Square, Farragut West, Federal Triangle, and Federal Center SW would qualify), or stations that essentially function as Park & Ride lots and have nothing else around them within walking distance (i.e. Cheverly, this may be the only station that falls into this category). 

Quote from: WMATAGMOAGH on March 05, 2010, 03:38:07 AM
also McPherson Square, Farragut West, Federal Triangle, and Federal Center SW would qualify

Farragut West: Might be a good idea, especially with the exit onto Farragut Square closed on weekends good service (McPherson Square, Farragut North) nearby.

McPherson Square & Federal Triangle: Might make sense, but I think the fact that bus routes terminate at both might keep both of these open weekends.

I still think the world could do without Virginia Square on the weekends, especially since Ballston and Clarendon are not that far away in either direction. I'd shut that before McPherson or Federal Triangle.

Quoteor stations that essentially function as Park & Ride lots and have nothing else around them within walking distance (i.e. Cheverly, this may be the only station that falls into this category). 

Why would Cheverly be in that position and not Morgan Boulevard? Outside maybe a dozen or so weekend days a year, Morgan Boulevard is in the same boat (and Cheverly at least has some weekend Metrobus service). Is it because Morgan Boulevard hasn't proven itself yet while Cheverly's basically a lost cause?

Aren't those two in a class by themselves? Even West Hyattsville (a bastion of poor PG planning) at least has some stuff near it within walking distance.

Oren,
Using Thanksgiving as evidence as to what stations should be closed on weekend is not a very good barometer.

Forget about closing Federal Triangle on weekends, Federal Triangle like Archives serves the Smithsonian Museums along Constitution Avenue. It also serves the various other attractions and establishments along Pennsylvania Avenue to the west.

Quote from: Sand Box John on March 05, 2010, 10:07:24 AM
Oren,
Using Thanksgiving as evidence as to what stations should be closed on weekend is not a very good barometer.

Oren does have a valid point. I've gone through Judiciary Square countless times on the weekend and most of the time it's vacant outside when there's some event at the Building Museum or (true story) some fans leaving events at Verizon Center heading towards Shady Grove walk there to have a better chance at a seat. Outside of those people, what real point is there in keeping it open on weekends? In fact, on many other forums everyone assumed that Judiciary Square would be shuttered as one of the weekend closures from the get-go.

Good point on Federal Triangle though, John.

Take it from me, Cheverly Station does get some kind of action on weekends. I know this. I live up the street from there. Morgan Blvd doesn't see much action, but you guys forgot about the Redskins games where Mogan Blvd gets jammed. I'd say Federal Center SW and Capitol South. That's all I can think of.

Quote from: LandoverDivision on March 05, 2010, 11:44:16 AM
Take it from me, Cheverly Station does get some kind of action on weekends. I know this. I live up the street from there. Morgan Blvd doesn't see much action, but you guys forgot about the Redskins games where Mogan Blvd gets jammed. I'd say Federal Center SW and Capitol South. That's all I can think of.

The Metro proposal clearly stated that if the proper parties would pay that Morgan Blvd would open for Redskins gamedays and any other weekend events (soccer matches, one-off college football games, concerts) that would happen. That'd take care of the dozen or so weekend days a year where the station would actually see use. I've always wondered why when it opened Metrobus didn't put in any bus service there...

Closing Capitol South would cut off the northern end of the commercial strip off/near Pennsylvania (and the southern half of Capitol Hill) from Metro on the weekends. That station's a bit more used than you'd think and it runs into the same problem that would happen with closing consecutive stations. There'd be a long gap between L'Enfant Plaza and Eastern Market.

(sarcasm mode goes on)
If we're going to diss Capitol South, why not close Court House, that one's redundant? How about closing Cleveland Park and putting the dagger in an already flagging commercial strip? If those darn apartments hadn't gone up, I'd so close Fort Totten even if Jim Graham killed me over it  :P .
(sarcasm mode goes off)

Has anyone else noticed the new residential development immediately adjacent to Morgan Blvd?  I wonder if the ridership from that could justify the cost of keeping the station open?

Quote from: Sand Box John on March 05, 2010, 10:07:24 AM
Oren,
Using Thanksgiving as evidence as to what stations should be closed on weekend is not a very good barometer.

Forget about closing Federal Triangle on weekends, Federal Triangle like Archives serves the Smithsonian Museums along Constitution Avenue. It also serves the various other attractions and establishments along Pennsylvania Avenue to the west.

Ordinarily I would agree, but I've never seen a Metro station completely empty like that before.  At least the other stations had some traffic, this one appeared to have none.

WRT to Federal Triangle, this is true, but there are other alternatives to Federal Triangle with Metro Center and Smithsonian that aren't so great with Archives.  I'd put Federal Triangle at the bottom of my list of proposals, but I'd keep it on there for consideration.

Quote from: Scrabbleship on March 05, 2010, 09:39:59 AM

Quote from: WMATAGMOAGH on March 05, 2010, 03:38:07 AM
also McPherson Square, Farragut West, Federal Triangle, and Federal Center SW would qualify

Farragut West: Might be a good idea, especially with the exit onto Farragut Square closed on weekends good service (McPherson Square, Farragut North) nearby.

McPherson Square & Federal Triangle: Might make sense, but I think the fact that bus routes terminate at both might keep both of these open weekends.

I still think the world could do without Virginia Square on the weekends, especially since Ballston and Clarendon are not that far away in either direction. I'd shut that before McPherson or Federal Triangle.

Quoteor stations that essentially function as Park & Ride lots and have nothing else around them within walking distance (i.e. Cheverly, this may be the only station that falls into this category). 

Why would Cheverly be in that position and not Morgan Boulevard? Outside maybe a dozen or so weekend days a year, Morgan Boulevard is in the same boat (and Cheverly at least has some weekend Metrobus service). Is it because Morgan Boulevard hasn't proven itself yet while Cheverly's basically a lost cause?

Aren't those two in a class by themselves? Even West Hyattsville (a bastion of poor PG planning) at least has some stuff near it within walking distance.

Who cares if bus routes terminate at downtown stations?  There are plenty of other stations nearby.

West Hyattsville has residential areas within walking distance that are not within walking distance to the next closest stations.  Cheverly does not AFAIK.  The need to keep Morgan Boulevard open for certain events at FedEx Field means it should be off the list for consistency purposes.  You don't want people having to think whether Morgan Boulevard will be open or not when deciding to take the train to FedEx Field, and then deciding to drive because they aren't sure.

of the list above, I would just choose Forest Glen, since even on weekdays it doesn't get much action.

I was gonna say Shady Grove Station as well, seeing how most of the routes that serve that station are weekday and/or rush hour routes. but then there's also the 55, 59, 46 (Sundays), 61, 90 (?), 43, 64, and 100 serving that station. It could be that they could close the Metro Station itself and allow buses to run and people to cross to other sides, but that would just cause a lot of complaints of people having to transfer to another bus to get to Rockville Station to catch the Metrorail.

Morgan Boulevard - doesn't seem like a busy station at all, especially since there's no Metrobuses that go around there. but during football games at FedEx Stadium, it's bound to be a busy one. I wouldn't be surprised if that closed on weekends though, and have it opened on game days.

Plus I agree with Oren, downtown stations are probably most suitable for closing on weekends, since there's many stations bunched up nearby. Of course, I don't suggest they close stations with transfer points.

What's the ridership like at the New York Ave. stop on weekends?  That seemed like it was put there primarily for weekday usage of the nearby offices. 

I also kind of like Virginia Square not being open.  Clarendon and Ballston are very close.  When I used to live in Ballston, I used to just walk to Clarendon or Court House rather than dealing with Metro.

Quote from: Perry on March 06, 2010, 03:42:24 PM
What's the ridership like at the New York Ave. stop on weekends?  That seemed like it was put there primarily for weekday usage of the nearby offices.

There actually is quite a bit of development that has opened near New York Ave, the first apartment/condo buildings are due to open within the next few months, another hotel is due to open, another retail strip including a Harris Teeter is opening this Fall as well. The NoMa area, fake as it sounds, is starting to mature and there is even some usage from the eastern parts of Bloomingdale/Eckington. There are people using it besides Greyhound station passengers and employees at ATF and Sirius/XM. I'd say keep it open.

QuoteI also kind of like Virginia Square not being open.  Clarendon and Ballston are very close.  When I used to live in Ballston, I used to just walk to Clarendon or Court House rather than dealing with Metro.

I think the one place that would object to Virginia Square closing on weekends is (don't laugh) the dancing school across the street from there. The one time I used Virginia Square involved that and on the way back I got lost and was halfway to Ballston as it was.

Quote from: Perry on March 06, 2010, 03:42:24 PM
What's the ridership like at the New York Ave. stop on weekends?  That seemed like it was put there primarily for weekday usage of the nearby offices. 

I also kind of like Virginia Square not being open.  Clarendon and Ballston are very close.  When I used to live in Ballston, I used to just walk to Clarendon or Court House rather than dealing with Metro.

What I don't get is why they built NYAve with two entrances that they staff full time.  Huge waste of money for a relatively low ridership station IMHO.

Quote from: Tristan on March 05, 2010, 06:44:10 PM
Has anyone else noticed the new residential development immediately adjacent to Morgan Blvd?  I wonder if the ridership from that could justify the cost of keeping the station open?

I haven't seen the development, but I'd imagine that it would...eventually.  I think there's room for plenty of development in the area, and closing the station on the weekend may hurt the potential of plenty of non-stadium ridership.

I don't believe it's a good idea to close stations that are bus terminals/transfer centers, like Cheverly.  At the same time, there should be a convenient local bus connection from the area of the closed station to the open ones.

What savings does WMATA expect to realize from these closings.  Will everything electric be cut out of the station on these days, or is it primarily limited to staffing/security?

Quote from: Tritransit Area on March 07, 2010, 01:37:21 AM
I don't believe it's a good idea to close stations that are bus terminals/transfer centers, like Cheverly.  At the same time, there should be a convenient local bus connection from the area of the closed station to the open ones.

What savings does WMATA expect to realize from these closings.  Will everything electric be cut out of the station on these days, or is it primarily limited to staffing/security?

More likely the latter, my understanding is station lights and such are usually left on for security purposes.

Cheverly is currently served by two bus routes on weekends, the F2 and F8, each running hourly.  The F8 could be rerouted to Landover on the weekends easily to maintain connectivity with the Orange Line, and the F2 could go to Deanwood.  This would result in unserved segments unless the routes went into the "unserved" neighborhoods and then went back out.  A perfect scenario would be to not need to close stations, but this could work.

George, closing Shady Grove is NOT feasible for many reasons.  It has a huge park and ride fed by an interstate highway, and the trains need to run up there to turn around anyway, unless you stub them into Rockville.  You also have lots of bus traffic that gets fed into there.  Hard to justify shifting everything down to Rockville.  Also, the way Shady Grove is laid out the walkway connecting the two sides of the station is closed when the Metro station is closed.

It would be confusing to have those routes go to two completely different stations on weekends. Signage, schedule adjustments, possibly adding a coach to make sure there is ample recovery time due to the changes in the run...I don't think it's worth it.  They could just have those buses either short-turn at PG Hospital or just still just go to the Cheverly area to hit the residential and businesses they do so people can still use the bus to transfer to something else.

I still like closing Virginia Square.  It's a useless station on weekends even though there is one apt. building right near there.  The problem with this Country is people can't walk a little bit and just head to Clarendon or Ballston rather than keep a pointless station open.  Sorry "Zimmie". LOL

I have a feeling Arlington County would be willing to pay to keep all of their Metro stations open... In fact... I think Metro should close stations in a jurisdiction which doesn't choose to fund keeping potentially closed stations open.

One thought - Judiciary Sq has the Gallery Place station within blocks while Forest Glen does not.  If, however, the District pays to keep Judiciary Sq open than it should remain open.

Quote from: Perry on March 07, 2010, 10:19:35 AM
It would be confusing to have those routes go to two completely different stations on weekends. Signage, schedule adjustments, possibly adding a coach to make sure there is ample recovery time due to the changes in the run...I don't think it's worth it.  They could just have those buses either short-turn at PG Hospital or just still just go to the Cheverly area to hit the residential and businesses they do so people can still use the bus to transfer to something else.

I still like closing Virginia Square.  It's a useless station on weekends even though there is one apt. building right near there.  The problem with this Country is people can't walk a little bit and just head to Clarendon or Ballston rather than keep a pointless station open.  Sorry "Zimmie". LOL

Maybe I'm turning Israeli or it is just me from maintaining the Jerusalem Bus Map, but I don't see an issue with a different endpoint for those routes.  Perhaps they can get a different designation (F3 5, 7, and 9 are all free) or the weekend versions can be the F52 and F58 or some really high number, the way the A42, A46, and A48 are early morning versions of the A2, A6, and A8.  That said, I don't know much about that area and how important it is to have the neighborhoods between the hospital and Metro served, and how important it is that there be connectivity to the Orange Line from those buses on weekend.  However, in the larger scheme of things, I don't see how rerouting those routes slightly will be a huge issue.

I can think of only one station where weekend traffic might be low enough to justify closing:

Federal Center SW

I can think of numinous stations with more then one entrance mezzanine that could close at least one entrance mezzanine on weekends:

Silver Spring	North mezzanine
New York Avenue	M Street mezzanine
Union Station	West Portico (south) mezzanine
Judiciary Square	F Street mezzanine
Gallery Place	9th Street mezzanine
Farragut North	Washington Sq (L Street south) mezzanine
Dopont Circle	19th Street mezzanine
Friendship Heights	Jenifer Street mezzanine
King Street	Cameron Street mezzanine
Farragut West	17th Street mezzanine
McPherson Square	Vermont Avenue mezzanine
L'Enfant Plaza	Dept of Transportation mezzanine
Stadium-Armory	Independence Avenue mezzanine
U Street	10th Street mezzanine
Shaw	R Street mezzanine
Navy Yard	New Jersey Avenue mezzanine (open on game days)

All of the mezzanine listed above are mezzanine that do not have elevator entrances with the exception of the Jenifer Street at Friendship Heights and New Jersey Avenue at Navy Yard.

Quote from: Sand Box John on March 07, 2010, 12:07:21 PM
I can think of only one station where weekend traffic might be low enough to justify closing:

Federal Center SW

I can think of numinous stations with more then one entrance mezzanine that could close at least one entrance mezzanine on weekends:

Silver Spring	North mezzanine
New York Avenue	M Street mezzanine
Union Station	West Portico (south) mezzanine
Judiciary Square	F Street mezzanine
Gallery Place	9th Street mezzanine
Farragut North	Washington Sq (L Street south) mezzanine
Dopont Circle	19th Street mezzanine
Friendship Heights	Jenifer Street mezzanine
King Street	Cameron Street mezzanine
Farragut West	17th Street mezzanine
McPherson Square	Vermont Avenue mezzanine
L'Enfant Plaza	Dept of Transportation mezzanine
Stadium-Armory	Independence Avenue mezzanine
U Street	10th Street mezzanine
Shaw	R Street mezzanine
Navy Yard	New Jersey Avenue mezzanine (open on game days)

All of the mezzanine listed above are mezzanine that do not have elevator entrances with the exception of the Jenifer Street at Friendship Heights and New Jersey Avenue at Navy Yard.

I think some of those mezzanines on your list are already closed.

In the case of Friendship Heights, I think it is important to note that the other side of the station has elevator access.

Quote from: Sand Box John on March 07, 2010, 12:07:21 PM
I can think of numinous stations with more then one entrance mezzanine that could close at least one entrance mezzanine on weekends:

Silver Spring	North mezzanine
New York Avenue	M Street mezzanine
Union Station	West Portico (south) mezzanine
Judiciary Square	F Street mezzanine
Gallery Place	9th Street mezzanine
Farragut North	Washington Sq (L Street south) mezzanine
Dopont Circle	19th Street mezzanine
Friendship Heights	Jenifer Street mezzanine
King Street	Cameron Street mezzanine
Farragut West	17th Street mezzanine
McPherson Square	Vermont Avenue mezzanine
L'Enfant Plaza	Dept of Transportation mezzanine
Stadium-Armory	Independence Avenue mezzanine
U Street	10th Street mezzanine
Shaw	R Street mezzanine
Navy Yard	New Jersey Avenue mezzanine (open on game days)

All of the mezzanine listed above are mezzanine that do not have elevator entrances with the exception of the Jenifer Street at Friendship Heights and New Jersey Avenue at Navy Yard.

Silver Spring (North): This one gets some pretty healthy usage with loads of apartment buildings/complexes just north/west of the station. Keep this one open.

New York Ave (M St NE): The closest connection to the 90's buses comes from here and it's the closer entrance for Gallaudet students and those form Bloomingdale/Eckington. Too soon to tell.

Union Station (West): I think the direct connection to the food court/shops would make this a hard one to close.

Judiciary Square (F St NW): Already closed on weekends.

Gallery Place (9th St NW): Might be a good idea.

Farragut North (19th St NW): With the already neurotic escalators on the Q St end, I think a second entry point is key. I think if this closes put in some contingency plan to reopen it if the Q St escalators conk out as they often do.

Friendship Heights (Jenifer St): I might support this one actually. I wonder how often it gets used even if it's the faster exit point.

King Street (Cameron St): Who uses this one even? Close it.

Farragut West (17th St NW): Already closed, much to the chagrin of many.

McPherson Square (Vermont Ave): The fact that his is the closest entrance to the White House might save closing this one.

L'Enfant Plaza (DOT): I think this one's already closed.

Stadium-Armory (Independence Ave): The majority of the bus bays for this station are here as is is the RFK entrance. Close 19th & C instead, that only opens into the old DC General Hospital campus.

U Street (10th St NW): Remember when "African Amer Civil War Memorial" was wedged into the name? Close this entrance on weekends and you'd might as well take that out (thanks Jim!).

Shaw: Debatable.

Navy Yard (New Jersey Avenue): I've heard the reverse of closing the one closer to Nationals Park instead. New Jersey Avenue is where all the buses that run near there stop. Might be something to consider.

Oren, Scrabbleship,

My reasoning for choosing those mezzanines is because they are the minor mezzanines, with the exception of Navy Yard. The major mezzanines have the elevators.

As an aside noted, the Jenifer Street mezzanine was not built as part of the original construction contract for the Friendship Heights station. Oren pointed out the fact that the north entrance has an elevator. The Jenifer Street mezzanine was built at a later date, don't know that date, but it was some time after access to the Western Division bus garage directly from Wisconsin Avenue walled off.