DC Area Transit Zone

OK folks, I've went ahead and created this poll to see how much everyone likes/loves these DE42/62LFAs. I've seen a LOT of heated debate on here about them, so I wanted to probe into the gravity of everyone's attitudes towards these buses. A little extra feedback is welcome, but I ask that we don't turn this into a flame-out. Just keep it civil people. If you disagree with someone, please use intelligent dissent.


IMHO, I do agree with most people here; I do think that these buses were an unnecessary purchase, just as I think that the purchase of the C40LFRs was unnecessary especially seeing that the intended purpose of those buses (C40LFRs) slated for the 79 line were defeated when they were put on LOCAL lines. In this instance with these hybrids, I think that they defeated the purpose of trying to save money. What's the point of trying to save money you don't have if you spend it all trying to pull some PR stunt that dosen't work? If the buses aren't still drawing the passengers onboard, it's pointless having them in the first place.
                                                       
And for the record, I dislike hybrid buses period (don't give a damn who makes em'). Yeah, I do snap pics of them, I audio-record them, and I make videos of them. Other than that, I could care less about them. I dislike them due to the fact that they STILL use (foreign) oil and batteries that do die out and have to be disposed of some way, some how. That's why I'm leaning more towards the CNG approach than hybrids. It's cleaner, it doesn't use foreign oil, and it's highly abundant. If anything, I'd like to see some CNG Hybrids hit the road. Until then, my viewpoint on hybrids is that they cause more problems than they solve.

Oh boy this might start another argument but,I like the look and all but I'm kinda disappointed the buses are getting quieter and cheaper....i mean, i pushed the window of a LFA the other day and it straight dented in like a hybrid car (prius)...so i don't know just my opinion,Also nice to see you back Mr.Montigue.

If I can add I just hope WMATA doesn't order too many of them. Thats all

I don't hate them, but I would rather would have them buy DE41LFRs.  With the budget problems WMATA is having, why would they spend excess money on wasted materials when having a DE41LFR would have been suitable, saved money which would have gone to either saving some routes, saving jobs or applied to other things.

I do agree that this should be civil, but if someone can't then those posts will be deleted automatically.  As MetroLinerXLZ mentioned this should be civil, even minded discussion.  If you aren't grown up enough to  post here then don't.

Now I'm actually gunning for DE41LFRs now thanks WES.

Quote from: orionvii2710 on November 13, 2009, 10:55:49 PM
Oh boy this might start another argument but,I like the look and all but I'm kinda disappointed the buses are getting quieter and cheaper....i mean, i pushed the window of a LFA the other day and it straight dented in like a hybrid car (prius)...so i don't know just my opinion,Also nice to see you back Mr.Montigue.

actually that's because WMATA has added an inner plexiglass panel for the hoodlums to scratch up.  What you're pushing on is that cheap, easily replaceable plexi panel...rest assures that there is solid glass behind it.  AFAIK, all of WMATA's frameless windows are configured this way.

Quote from: orionvii2710 on November 13, 2009, 10:55:49 PM
Oh boy this might start another argument but,I like the look and all but I'm kinda disappointed the buses are getting quieter and cheaper....i mean, i pushed the window of a LFA the other day and it straight dented in like a hybrid car (prius)...so i don't know just my opinion,Also nice to see you back Mr.Montigue.

And nice to see all y'all here too. I might not post often here, but I do stop by often.

Quote from: WES on November 13, 2009, 10:56:40 PM
I don't hate them, but I would rather would have them buy DE41LFRs.  With the budget problems WMATA is having, why would they spend excess money on wasted materials when having a DE41LFR would have been suitable, saved money which would have gone to either saving some routes, saving jobs or applied to other things.

I do agree that this should be civil, but if someone can't then those posts will be deleted automatically.  As MetroLinerXLZ mentioned this should be civil, even minded discussion.  If you aren't grown up enough to  post here then don't.

If WMATA had taken that approach (getting DE41LFRs instead), there would be none of the heated discussion I've seen here. Even I would've had a more positive approach towards em'.

So realy how much more is Wmata paying NFI for the name LFA?

Quote from: orionvii2710 on November 13, 2009, 11:56:42 PM
So realy how much more is Wmata paying NFI for the name LFA?

I estimate at least about $17,000 when it comes to adding all of that extra stuff onto that D40LF (which is what it really is when you strip it naked). This includes the cost of:

-The front end cap and windshield pieces
-Raised roof pieces
-Modified exhaust pipe/end tip
-Frameless windows (and the special vandal-friendly plexiglass pieces within them)
-Rear wheel covers
-Extending the bus length by 2 feet

It might be more than my estimate, or quite a bit less. Whatever the extras come up to, multiply that times the amount of  buses in the order and you'll see the total amount spent on the extras for that order. Keep in mind that this s--t ain't Standard configuration; that's an optional  D40LF configuration.

Time to do your homework.....

I think it is a wise investment, only if it didn't come at a sacrifice of service, which I highly doubt. A bus is a 12 year investment, one of your primary marketing and advertisement tools. Also, in this industry, you need to think and plan WELL ahead of your time. You need to think about what can you possibly buy today and which one of your options will age the best, be least likely to repel, and most likely to attract riders for these twelve years. By no means should it be used for a gimmick or any type of "This is your all new and improved [insert TA]!". Its strictly curb appeal and the ability for each option to maintain its curb appeal for the lifespan of the vehicle, which translates into an advertisement tool, which translates into long-term ridership base replenishment.

Also, $17,000 may sound a lot to the average Joe. But consider the fact that a typical 40' hybrid transit bus runs upwards of half a million dollars apiece, a 60' hybrid runs of over 3/4 of a million dollars apiece. A $17,000 "option" for one vehicle of this value is quite negligible and really is no more than a farebox upgrade and a bike rack. Take that $17,000 you pay today, that $17,000 will decrease in dollar value while you retain the curb appeal value you purchase with it for 12 years.

Or in other words...

You can buy a 2009 Civic today for $10,000 (2009 standard price), or you can buy a redesigned 2015 Civic today for $15,000 (2009 "upgrade" price). Or you can buy a 2015 Civic in 2015 for $20,000 (2015 standard price). You keep the car for 12 years and you want the most overall value of your car for those 12 years for the least money invested. The value of the 2009 Civic drops substantially in 2015 when the redesigned model becomes the new base standard. If you wait until 2015 to get the redesign so you can pay the "base" price for it instead of paying a "premium" to get it in 2009, you might end up paying more in 2015 due to inflation. So really, what is the best option of you want to get the most "bang for the buck"?

The more I was typing the last paragraph the more I realized it had less and less to do with the LFAs, but it needs to be taken into consideration that the problem isn't as simple as "x is cheaper than y right now so x is the better option!". You really have to take into account what you're really getting for your investment for its entire lifespan.

You buy a bus, you want something that can attract and can CONTINUE to attract for 12 years. Forecast how that bus's attraction and image benefits will lay out over 12 years; should you get something that is futuristic now and will look fairly new/good when it is retired? Or something that looks fairly new/good now and will look like obsolete and repelling when it is retired?

Forecast the value of your dollar over those 12 years; do you spend more by getting a fairly new/good looking bus in the future, or by getting a futuristic looking bus today that will look fairly new/good in the future?

I don't care for LFA styling at all.  At best, I can tolerate it.  I wish WMATA would've gotten more DE40LF, but I would've been OK with LFRs too.  This is coming from both my busfan side and practical side. 

My biggest issues with the LFA is that the extra cost gets you no added function over a standard LF/LFR, add to the footprint, again with no added benefit, heavier and of course more expensive.  In this day and age of widespread budget cuts, budget deficits, service cuts, fare hikes, layoffs etc. - I think it's irresponsible to spend extra dollars to get curved buses that again, has no added benefit over the LF/LFR. 

That's my two cents.

Quote from: WayneNYC on November 14, 2009, 01:52:47 AM
I don't care for LFA styling at all.  At best, I can tolerate it.  I wish WMATA would've gotten more DE40LF, but I would've been OK with LFRs too.  This is coming from both my busfan side and practical side. 

My biggest issues with the LFA is that the extra cost gets you no added function over a standard LF/LFR, add to the footprint, again with no added benefit, heavier and of course more expensive.  In this day and age of widespread budget cuts, budget deficits, service cuts, fare hikes, layoffs etc. - I think it's irresponsible to spend extra dollars to get curved buses that again, has no added benefit over the LF/LFR. 

That's my two cents.

The US bus manufacturers are trying to compete with the European ones in adopting that Euro style look to their buses. The Xcelsior boasts a pleasing look as well as weight reductions and other fuel saving features, plus from what I've seen in the specs, it's supposed to have easier access to components and repositioning of different components. But yea, as Ray said before the marketing thing plays a role with it as well. But hey, if you get a good deal on buses, who wouldn't take it.

As far as the design itself, I kind of like the LFA. I don't care much for the fact that it adds two feet of useless overhang (I don't think it adds to the wheelbase), or the rear wheel covers.

I like the LFR as well, but ONLY if it is done right. It just doesn't look good at all to me if you have LFR front and rear caps slapped onto a late 1980s box body with non-frameless windows and black doors. However if you throw in frameless windows and a flowing paint job, it'll like many times better. Thus why I like the C40LFRs and don't like the D40LFRs at all.

Montigue, I think you're way short on your pricetag but I don't have real numbers to back it up.  That full roof cap alone looks like $15k in my mind...but I'll research it.

Quote from: Tristan on November 14, 2009, 10:24:36 AM
Montigue, I think you're way short on your pricetag but I don't have real numbers to back it up.  That full roof cap alone looks like $15k in my mind...but I'll research it.

Like I stated, it could be more or less. Even I didn't have the solid numbers when I came up with the estimate. I was taking a wild guess at it.

The research is definitely well needed though. Perhaps I should do a little digging myself...

And azn, in response to your first message, point well taken. Image is something to consider in a bus purchase. However, the look of a bus (now and in the future) is a non-issue if service isn't getting as good as those buses look. The main image people look are looking at is the 10:57a 23A bus arriving at Ballston station on time (give or take a few minutes).

And if they don't target their service expansions and fancy buses somewhat simultaneously, the fancy bus effect won't exist because the fancy buses won't be considered fancy too much longer.

When you think of it, why is it that most cities in the south have turned to Gillig (sans a few major cities like Atlanta and Miami) for their recent purchases? Because the people in those areas really don't give a crap about how good the bus looks.

The only thing that they're concerned about is the bus running and getting to where they're going in reasonable time. What you can basically take from this is that in the south, it's more about the function (and the cost, for damn sure) than it is the form. And if it means that boring ass shoeboxes do the trick, so be it.

And that's where most people here (me included) think that these hybrids aren't worth the money spent on them. They look all good and fancy and futuristic, but where is the function at?!? And most of all, how much did it cost to get it? Why didn't they look at any other practical alternatives (like the LFRs) to getting the LFAs? And when am I going to actually see some "new and improved" service?!?!

I personally like the style. They really are an eye catcher.

The LFA's just look really clunky.  I prefer the LFR's and I love the DE41LFR's and C40LFR's we have in Vegas.  Unfortunately due to the fact that nobody really has any money flowing for additional bus purchases, we won't have any new buses coming through here for awhile.  We did acquire two C40LFR's that were supposed to go to the City of Las Vegas, but since they do not operate the City Ride anymore, we have them.  Kind of strange to see a gold bus running around with a blue City Ride CNG tank...I almost ran off the road taking a double-take looking at it the other day.

Quote from: MetroLinerXLZ on November 14, 2009, 11:22:40 AM
When you think of it, why is it that most cities in the south have turned to Gillig (sans a few major cities like Atlanta and Miami) for their recent purchases? Because the people in those areas really don't give a crap about how good the bus looks.

Um no...systems turn to Gillig because they are often the lowest bidder. They can deliver in a very timely and reliable fashion and they are very customer service oriented.

Smaller cities, especially those with more financial constraints often try to get the most bang for the buck. Gilligs simply beat out the competition product quality (for what you're paying), price, customer service, and delivery timeliness, which is why they're most popular in smaller cities.

Quote from: MetroLinerXLZ on November 14, 2009, 11:22:40 AM
And that's where most people here (me included) think that these hybrids aren't worth the money spent on them. They look all good and fancy and futuristic, but where is the function at?!?

The functional benefits of hybrids? They use less fuel.

Not worth it? Lets assume a hybrid gets one more mpg than a conventional diesel bus. Multiply that by the number of hybrids in your fleet. Multiply that by at least 12 hours on the road per day per bus. Multiply that by 365 days per year. Multiply that by 12 years.

Take inflation for 12 years as well as rising diesel prices. So not only the price of diesel itself is going to go up, but the value of your dollar is going to go down. If your extra investment in a hybrid was made in full cash today, what you spent today to buy yourself that benefit for the next 12 years is locked in in 2009 cash worth. That extra 1mpg might make a big difference in the long run.

QuoteUm no...systems turn to Gillig because they are often the lowest bidder. They can deliver in a very timely and reliable fashion and they are very customer service oriented.

Smaller cities, especially those with more financial constraints often try to get the most bang for the buck. Gilligs simply beat out the competition product quality (for what you're paying), price, customer service, and delivery timeliness, which is why they're most popular in smaller cities.

Now I did mention cost plays a factor when I said (quoting myself):

QuoteThe only thing that they're concerned about is the bus running and getting to where they're going in reasonable time. What you can basically take from this is that in the south, it's more about the function (and the cost, for damn sure) than it is the form. And if it means that boring ass shoeboxes do the trick, so be it.

And it's not necessarily tight budget constraints that dictate this. Keep in mind that there are quite a lot of "politically red" areas in the south (AWW DAMN, here HE go wit' da Souf again) that are doing well, yet aren't so happy to provide transit services. Chesterfield County (right down the street from me) is a prime example of this.

QuoteThe functional benefits of hybrids? They use less fuel.

OK, how about using something that doesn't require the use of diesel fuel. CNG perhaps?!? I mean, in a country where everyone is going "green" and is getting tired of using foreign oil to power their cars, I think we'd be, ya know, trying to rid ourselves of that dependence. IMO, diesel hybrids ain't cutting it. As I stated previously, they're still consuming diesel fuel, and there's still the issue of dead/dying batteries, which still have to be disposed of. What, we're supposed to dispose of them things Yucca Mountain style??

Now on the other hand, I will agree with locking in fuel prices. IF WMATA has some sort of contract with the local governments or some oil company that allows them to purchase diesel fuel at around $3-4/per gallon for the next few years or so, then you do have a return in the investment. GRTC (for example) has a contract with the City of Richmond that locks their fuel prices in a $2-3/per gallon. It has been an effective tool in that it has (almost) stopped some possible service cuts and fare increases. So I do see where you're coming from on that end.

Personally, I think the lines of an LFR are more pleasing than the heavy look of an LFA, but that's just me.

When I look at an LFA, it seems to more belong to a BRT type of service than conventional bus service.  One can make the argument that they're using it for that purpose on routes like the S9, but calling the S9 "BRT" to me is like calling the PATH train "Commuter Rail."

Still, you'll see the LFA's rolling around on lines that are very transit dependent, and which will not attract any choice riders based on where they go, how often they stop, etc...

On the surface, this would appear illogical, but when one considers an often overlooked factor, there MAY be a method to the madness.  What is this factor? Title VI.

In getting Fed Funds, WMATA has to comply with Title VI regulations that essentially dicate that all routes are created equal.  Included with this Title VI compliance are provisions that an agency can't just stick its older equipment in low income and minority areas while predominately non-minority, higher income areas are all riding the newer equipment.  Failure to show complaince can lead to fines and loss of funding.

Thus, it MAY be that WMATA had to essentially purchase twice the number of LFAs it wanted to ensure it could demonstrate equal treatment in the eyes of the law.  Yes, it's not as if the S9 doesn't visit areas whose residents don't exactly have it made, but statistically, it probably ranks as far more affluent than the P6 or A2.

Much of this is conjecture on my part, but it could offer an explanation as to why so many, and why so meandering an allotment.

Hopefully the DE42LFA replaces all 1990-1994 Flixble Metro and hopefully the DE62LFA replaces all the 1995 American Ikarus/NABI 436, which they are doing currently now.  ;)


Also the DE42LFA and DE62LFA look nice but I still prefer NOVABus LFS, LFSA and LFX and Orion VII NG anyday over them anyday.

Quote from: btconet on November 14, 2009, 05:39:45 PM
Personally, I think the lines of an LFR are more pleasing than the heavy look of an LFA, but that's just me.

When I look at an LFA, it seems to more belong to a BRT type of service than conventional bus service.  One can make the argument that they're using it for that purpose on routes like the S9, but calling the S9 "BRT" to me is like calling the PATH train "Commuter Rail."

Still, you'll see the LFA's rolling around on lines that are very transit dependent, and which will not attract any choice riders based on where they go, how often they stop, etc...

On the surface, this would appear illogical, but when one considers an often overlooked factor, there MAY be a method to the madness.  What is this factor? Title VI.

In getting Fed Funds, WMATA has to comply with Title VI regulations that essentially dicate that all routes are created equal.  Included with this Title VI compliance are provisions that an agency can't just stick its older equipment in low income and minority areas while predominately non-minority, higher income areas are all riding the newer equipment.  Failure to show complaince can lead to fines and loss of funding.

Thus, it MAY be that WMATA had to essentially purchase twice the number of LFAs it wanted to ensure it could demonstrate equal treatment in the eyes of the law.  Yes, it's not as if the S9 doesn't visit areas whose residents don't exactly have it made, but statistically, it probably ranks as far more affluent than the P6 or A2.

Much of this is conjecture on my part, but it could offer an explanation as to why so many, and why so meandering an allotment.

As for PATH, they kinda are a commuter rail system. Instead of being a sort of subway system, it's kinda regarded as a real railroad.

Even with BRT, it's still the glorified rail on wheels theory.

Quote from: 79MetroExtraMD on November 16, 2009, 12:25:00 AM
As for PATH, they kinda are a commuter rail system. Instead of being a sort of subway system, it's kinda regarded as a real railroad.

Even with BRT, it's still the glorified rail on wheels theory.

PATH is called commuter rail pretty much because it operates between New York City limits and beyond.  While it's very much a subway system, PATH is still subject to FRA regulations since it shared trackage with Penn RR.  I think at least one crossover still exists.  PATH (and Staten Island Railway) must have some waiver that permits their trains to not have the high centered headlight.

I'm going to buck the trend and say that I like the LFA's since they put a totally different spin on an product that has been a bit done to death. Love or hate New Flyers, at least WMATA has shaken things up with their orders and has made it somewhat fun. I think someone in Chicago, Boston, Philly, or Milwaukee would swap their large numbers of plain D40LF's for DC's variety pack if you also toss FFX and Ride On in there. At least the LFA's don't require windshield wipers for the side front windows.

As for equal treatment, I would think the lower half of the 30's and much of any Northern route would socioeconomically cancel out the S9, upper half of the 30's, etc. etc. Under the same idea, it can be argued that the "good" parts of DC were a little due since the 60-BRT's see the majority of their service in some of the most disadvantaged areas of DC.

I agree too scrabbleship on the WMATA shaken things up with they're fleet, its good to see something different as long as they don't go overboard with it. But I think some of us agree that there is rarely a "Good" part of DC as part as where the buses run. If I had to guess you probably meant them running in the "Hood". But it really doesn't matter where they run they get tagged up anyway just my opinion, but anyways I agree it makes it somewhat fun.

Let's say if I was to side with the people who think they are a waste. What can we do now? They're already here and WMATA has already wasted the money so there wasn't anything we could do before and there isn't anything we could do about it now so we're going to have to deal with it one way or another. They're gonna be here for the long run.

Basicly the styles of WMATA's buses change with every other bus order so after the next LFA order then WMATA may order XDE40s of go back to the LF/LFR style or choose something else.

Quote from: LandoverDivision on November 18, 2009, 06:04:58 PM
Let's say if I was to side with the people who think they are a waste. What can we do now? They're already here and WMATA has already wasted the money so there wasn't anything we could do before and there isn't anything we could do about it now so we're going to have to deal with it one way or another. They're gonna be here for the long run.

Obviously the buses are here to stay.  Those of us who believe it's a waste knows it's a done deal (I'm not sure why you think we don't know this).  However, we believe that during planning.... Yes, there was some planning, (They didn't just wake up one day, call New Flyer and say send us a bunch of LFAs) they should've considered a less expensive alternative.  That alternative would've been DE41LF/R and DE60LF/R which would've cost less, have the same functionality as the LFA, with less weight and two foot shorter footprint.  But, the guy in charge likes buses with curves, so we have all of these premium priced NFI LFAs and NABI BRTs that offer zero extra capability over the "plain" models except that they give you guys a differently styled bus to ride.  Yet, that extra money per bus, for curvy designed could've been put to better use, like additional buses, possibly more service etc.

Quote from: Annex4421 on November 18, 2009, 07:37:55 PM
Basicly the styles of WMATA's buses change with every other bus order so after the next LFA order then WMATA may order XDE40s of go back to the LF/LFR style or choose something else.

Why would they go back to LF/LFRs?  They purchased the NABI 60-BRT and LFAs because Catoe wanted "buses with curves".  I didn't make this up.  It's a direct quote.  It's not because he wants a diverse fleet.  So, unless he leaves or for some reason changes his mind... You'll probably be seeing more of them in future orders

I don't understand why this specific discussion gets so heated, unlike a discussion where we say cutaways are junk, or the 9600s were slow at takeoff, or the Metro-Bs are generally good buses -- in all instances, yes our opinion basically doesn't mean anything because we're not "in authority" to make equipment decisions, and yes we say all this after the vehicles have arrived (or been altered), and yes, we realize that talking about it doesn't mean they're going to reverse course and do what we say, but ... we can still have that discussion...until it comes down to LFAs.

Landover, it's not about taking sides -- you're welcome to have your opinion, and you're allowed to have an opinion that might not "fix" anything.  And if you're gonna like the LFAs, like them because you like them, not just because we're stuck with them.

Wayne I'm sorry I meant to say go back to the LF/LFRs I know WMATA never repeats buses of the same style, it was just a suggestion.

Quote from: Annex4421 on November 18, 2009, 09:52:04 PM
I know WMATA never repeats buses of the same style, it was just a suggestion.

What? Sure they do...

9600s>>4300s>>2100s.

Yes but look at the gap in between each of them.

There's no real gap between the 4300s and 2100s - one bus order and then the next bus order.

What I think aznboy is getting at though is that you shouldn't state such things as though they are some sort of official WMATA policy just because of a few coincidences.  Lately, they've been around the block as far as bus orders go, but by no means is there not a precedent for year after year of the same thing (Flxible Metros for damn near 10 years straight anyone?).

Look at the C40LFs, DE40LFs, DE40LFRs, D40LFRs, and DE42LFAs. They're all essentially the same thing.

Quote from: Tristan on November 18, 2009, 11:01:43 PM
There's no real gap between the 4300s and 2100s - one bus order and then the next bus order.

What I think aznboy is getting at though is that you shouldn't state such things as though they are some sort of official WMATA policy just because of a few coincidences.  Lately, they've been around the block as far as bus orders go, but by no means is there not a precedent for year after year of the same thing (Flxible Metros for damn near 10 years straight anyone?).

Just like in NYC where the RTS almost dominated the entire fleet back in the 90s. I'm surprised they didn't consider Millennium for a potential order (before NJT screwed them).

Quote from: 79MetroExtraMD on November 19, 2009, 08:28:32 AM

Quote from: Tristan on November 18, 2009, 11:01:43 PM
There's no real gap between the 4300s and 2100s - one bus order and then the next bus order.

What I think aznboy is getting at though is that you shouldn't state such things as though they are some sort of official WMATA policy just because of a few coincidences.  Lately, they've been around the block as far as bus orders go, but by no means is there not a precedent for year after year of the same thing (Flxible Metros for damn near 10 years straight anyone?).

Just like in NYC where the RTS almost dominated the entire fleet back in the 90s. I'm surprised they didn't consider Millennium for a potential order (before NJT screwed them).

When Millennium came along NYCTA was already leaning more toward Orion.  Also, I doubt they would've ordered from them as the TA certainly was not going to put up the money before receiving the buses and being satisfied with them.

Here's an interesting thought.  Why are all of these buses New Flyers?  Isn't LACMTA a NABI town?  I wouldn't have minded seeing a whole bunch of NABI BRTs running around.

I'm wondering - weren't these buses on order before Catoe became GM?  Maybe not as LFAs, but surely as New Flyers.

Finally, why do [some of] you all assume that all we (WMATA) will be getting is New Flyers in the future?  I mean, we did just get NABI 60-BRTs, and it's not like WMATA ever had an unwavering loyalty to one manufacture (i.e., 9600s in a sea of Flx orders, Orion VIIs after an order of C40LFs and perhaps the D40LFRs, etc).

Quote from: Tritransit Area on November 19, 2009, 12:06:16 PM
Here's an interesting thought.  Why are all of these buses New Flyers?  Isn't LACMTA a NABI town?  I wouldn't have minded seeing a whole bunch of NABI BRTs running around.

I'm wondering - weren't these buses on order before Catoe became GM?  Maybe not as LFAs, but surely as New Flyers.

LACMTA seems to be into NABIs nowadays, but they do have some New Flyers too. 

I think WMATA may have already had an agreement with New Flyer when Catoe came along, but they weren't necessarily planning to get LFAs.  My guess is that had Catoe not come to WMATA, they probably would've purchased DE35LF, DE41LFR, DE60LFR and NABI 60-LFWs.  Just my guess.

2100s > 4300s. But they're the same bus one just came out two years later. Anyways I don't like the LFAs because we're stuck with them (I don't know where you got that idea from).

Because in most of your responses where people said they didn't like them, you just kept saying that Metro makes the decision and there's nothing we can do about it -- not to be critical, but you didn't give too many reasons you actually like them.  Not that you have to explain yourself, but that's the conclusion you left to be made.

I know I don't have to but I will. I love the LFAs. They catch my eye every time. Comfortable seats, fast, they're great sounding. The "extra space" you guys are talking about, I don't really care about that extra space. They're BRT it's a style it doesn't really matter to me. I love the BRTs and I think WMATA made a good choice buying them. I don't really see what the big deal about them is. But everyone's entitles to opinions. Like I said, I love the BRT styled buses.

Personally I take it like this like the tittle says you either love em or hate em bottom line so lets just ends this stuff.

How are those LFAs doing at Friendship Heights?

Also...sound great?  I'm guessing it's a different greatness in sound from a throaty 6v92TA screaming as it shifts through the gears of the Allison HT-748, hanging a tad for 1, 2, 3 seconds before shifting out of lockup.  Or different from the 6v92TA engine, hooked up to the ZF 4HP-490 transmission, going whoo, whoo, whoo, whooooo after a minor yet annoyingly lovable trademark jerk as the bus pulls away from the stop....

Sigh, I miss those buses...those powertrains...

It's nice that WMATA has so much money to throw away on fancy bus purchases when they could be using it to upgrade WMATArail!  But wait, isn't that what everyone was complaining that WMATA did since the Red Line opened back in the 1970s?

Woulda, shoulda, coulda, DIDN'T.  We understand you hate NABI and love ElDorado and NovaBus, but there's no need to inject a plea for an LFS order into *every* thread on this website.

Quote from: Tristan on November 22, 2009, 09:00:23 PM
Woulda, shoulda, coulda, DIDN'T.  We understand you hate NABI and love ElDorado and NovaBus, but there's no need to inject a plea for an LFS order into *every* thread on this website.

Why does this guy feel like a SubChat person to me?

Quote from: novabusorionfan on November 22, 2009, 04:50:21 PMHopefully the order becomes the NOVABus LFS bus order for next year instead of NABI 416 order, but i doubt it would happen. I'm gald NABI is Not in Canada at least because NABI 416 sucks.

What if I think the LFS sucks?

Quote from: aznboy4305 on November 22, 2009, 10:28:50 PM

Quote from: novabusorionfan on November 22, 2009, 04:50:21 PMHopefully the order becomes the NOVABus LFS bus order for next year instead of NABI 416 order, but i doubt it would happen. I'm gald NABI is Not in Canada at least because NABI 416 sucks.

What if I think the LFS sucks?

I second that. You see why Montreal and most Quebecois agencies buy them.

Quote from: novabusorionfan on November 22, 2009, 04:50:21 PM
I'm gald NABI is Not in Canada at least because NABI 416 sucks. I'm glad NYCT isn't ordering buses from NABI at least. ;) :D :)

First of all, NABI is in Canada ala Optima and Blue Bird. What do you have against the 416? It's a nice sturdy bus that's had a long history in Europe. NJT only went to them because they specified a high floor bus and they were the only ones still making high floor buses to their specifications.

Quote from: 79MetroExtraMD on November 22, 2009, 10:41:44 PM
What do you have against the 416? It's a nice sturdy bus that's had a long history in Europe.

See SEPTA and B-more for reference.

Quote from: Tritransit Area on November 23, 2009, 11:16:42 AM

Quote from: 79MetroExtraMD on November 22, 2009, 10:41:44 PM
What do you have against the 416? It's a nice sturdy bus that's had a long history in Europe.

See SEPTA and B-more for reference.

That's because our streets are a nightmare. The City won't get it's act together and repave them. Most of which are ones that constantly have problems.

I agree, Ken - I even blame those streets for the frame cracks in the Neoplans and New Flyers -- you cannot drive a vehicle through sinkholes and caverns for 18 hours a day or more for 12 years (or even 3-5) and expect no frame problems, especially at the rear door area where there is a giant hole in the frame, no axle to hold things up, and near the middle of the bus where all the torsion takes effect.  I'm surprised the NABIs didn't have such problems, but maybe it's a high floor thing that makes them better suited for the environment.

Quote from: Tritransit Area on November 23, 2009, 11:16:42 AM

Quote from: 79MetroExtraMD on November 22, 2009, 10:41:44 PM
What do you have against the 416? It's a nice sturdy bus that's had a long history in Europe.

See SEPTA and B-more for reference.

If anything, B-more would be a testament to how well they perform in adverse environments. Seeing that they've been able to hold up that well despite the potholes, sinkholes, gunshots, and riders, I'd say that they're some pretty solid buses.

Perhaps you could add Oakland (AC Transit) or San Fransisco (MUNI) to that list??

Quote from: 79MetroExtraMD on November 22, 2009, 10:38:29 PM

Quote from: aznboy4305 on November 22, 2009, 10:28:50 PM

Quote from: novabusorionfan on November 22, 2009, 04:50:21 PMHopefully the order becomes the NOVABus LFS bus order for next year instead of NABI 416 order, but i doubt it would happen. I'm gald NABI is Not in Canada at least because NABI 416 sucks.

What if I think the LFS sucks?

I second that. You see why Montreal and most Quebecois agencies buy them.

Until about last year, most Quebecois agencies had no choice in the matter. Novabus had a near-legislated monopoly and the Canadian transit funding structure made it near impossible to buy otherwise. It's also why AC on transit vehicles is near-nonexistent there; the FTQ's funding doesn't cover it.

Similar situation exists in Manitoba with New Flyer and I think Orion's open-ended deal with the TTC more than makes up for agencies like Mississauga Transit in their own backyard going elsewhere.

I thought the lack of AC was just because it was Canada.  Didn't think they had a lot of hot air :-)

Quote from: Tristan on November 23, 2009, 03:41:03 PM
I thought the lack of AC was just because it was Canada.  Didn't think they had a lot of hot air :-)

Maybe they were preparing for the torrent of Americans who'd sneak in through the pine trees after the last two elections ;)

I tried one.  It's overrated in my opinion - not that much better than one of the later LFRs.

there's a heck of a lot of space up front, though....perfect for those really tight turns......

Just for my quick late response i love the DE62LFA's and the NABI BRT's but i hate the DE42LFA's.

Quote from: MetroLinerXLZ on November 23, 2009, 02:26:15 PM

Quote from: Tritransit Area on November 23, 2009, 11:16:42 AM

Quote from: 79MetroExtraMD on November 22, 2009, 10:41:44 PM
What do you have against the 416? It's a nice sturdy bus that's had a long history in Europe.

See SEPTA and B-more for reference.

If anything, B-more would be a testament to how well they perform in adverse environments. Seeing that they've been able to hold up that well despite the potholes, sinkholes, gunshots, and riders, I'd say that they're some pretty solid buses.

Perhaps you could add Oakland (AC Transit) or San Fransisco (MUNI) to that list??

Touché!  How are the NABIs over there doing, anyway?  I don't hear much about them. 

I'm wondering if high floors are just sturdier in general than low floor buses.  All of the problems with the Neoplans and New Flyers weren't there with the Flxes and NABIs to my knowledge.

Quote from: Tritransit Area on December 04, 2009, 12:25:07 PM

Quote from: MetroLinerXLZ on November 23, 2009, 02:26:15 PM

Quote from: Tritransit Area on November 23, 2009, 11:16:42 AM

Quote from: 79MetroExtraMD on November 22, 2009, 10:41:44 PM
What do you have against the 416? It's a nice sturdy bus that's had a long history in Europe.

See SEPTA and B-more for reference.

If anything, B-more would be a testament to how well they perform in adverse environments. Seeing that they've been able to hold up that well despite the potholes, sinkholes, gunshots, and riders, I'd say that they're some pretty solid buses.

Perhaps you could add Oakland (AC Transit) or San Fransisco (MUNI) to that list??

Touché!  How are the NABIs over there doing, anyway?  I don't hear much about them.

From what I understand, they are either in the process of receiving (or have received) several exhaust modifications, which were required per recently amended (and highly ridiculous, IMO) CARB regulations. Other than that, they're running pretty decent. It does make me glad that I live in a state that doesn't have such ridiculous air quality standards/regulations/laws.

I also have a gut feeling that high-floor buses are better suited for adverse environments than low-floors, granted the ground clearance.

[It is my theory that] Low floor buses tend to have a lower ground clearance than that of a standard-floor bus. You will DEFINITELY notice that difference between a New Flyer LF model and a Metro, especially seeing that Metros tend to be higher up in the rear than (basically) any other bus model built.

Quote from: Tritransit Area on December 04, 2009, 12:25:07 PM
I'm wondering if high floors are just sturdier in general than low floor buses.  All of the problems with the Neoplans and New Flyers weren't there with the Flxes and NABIs to my knowledge.

Well low floors are a completely different design and construction from high floor buses. The typical modern high floor bus is a body on chassis design, with the chassis running the full length of the bus. However, with low floor buses, the chassis/main frame extends only from the rear of the bus to about where the rear axle is, to support the powertrain. From the rear axle forward, it is a unibody design consisting of crossmembers, but no chassis (at least that is the case with Gillig Advantages).

Ah - that could explain a lot of things!  I also agree with the ground clearance issue.  Back in the SEPTA world, it was said that Frontier district only received such a small batch of New Flyers initially (and part of the last batch at that) because in Norristown, coming into the transportation center, they would bottom out coming down from the hill on Swede Street and crossing Main Street to access the center.

I think that problem has been fixed now, but it is certainly food for thought.

PG is has a great example of low clearance on low floors - check out this Thomas:

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/Bastranz/DC%20Area%20Transit/PG%20THE%20BUS/THEBUS63031-CapitalHeightsStation-1.jpg)

Quote from: DE42LFA on December 03, 2009, 05:41:55 PM
Just for my quick late response i love the DE62LFA's and the NABI BRT's but i hate the DE42LFA's.

then why is your name DE42LFA???

imo I love all of these new buses...disregarding the fact that they might have taken a large toll on WMATA's budget, but idk I just like them.

Quote from: NewFlyer97BCT on December 05, 2009, 01:12:44 PM

Quote from: DE42LFA on December 03, 2009, 05:41:55 PM
Just for my quick late response i love the DE62LFA's and the NABI BRT's but i hate the DE42LFA's.

then why is your name DE42LFA???

imo I love all of these new buses...disregarding the fact that they might have taken a large toll on WMATA's budget, but idk I just like them.

Agreed George. I really don't know what it is about some of WMATA's buses that just gets everyone to hate them. I love all of our buses.

Quote from: LandoverDivision on December 05, 2009, 03:30:18 PM

Quote from: NewFlyer97BCT on December 05, 2009, 01:12:44 PM

Quote from: DE42LFA on December 03, 2009, 05:41:55 PM
Just for my quick late response i love the DE62LFA's and the NABI BRT's but i hate the DE42LFA's.

then why is your name DE42LFA???

imo I love all of these new buses...disregarding the fact that they might have taken a large toll on WMATA's budget, but idk I just like them.

Agreed George. I really don't know what it is about some of WMATA's buses that just gets everyone to hate them. I love all of our buses.

Before they came into service i was all hyped. Now they in service and i hate em. Besides i tried changing my name before but its some bug,glitch thing wont let me. *Calls Tristan*

Presto, change-o.

@Landover, it's from a practicality perspective that we jab at these vehicles (which I think has been adequately explained here several times).  I think all of us like the fact that there is variety, but from a PRACTICAL, BUDGETARY, OPERATIONAL standpoint, they present problems that we think could have been avoided.  Don't take it so personally.

Isn't this the largest single order of vehicles with one specific specification?  I think the 4200 order came close, but no cigar with all of the "WMATA rejects" out there.

Have all the LFAs been delivered?

Quote from: OrionFlyer on February 20, 2010, 01:04:40 PM
Have all the LFAs been delivered?

When will the new ones arrive?

Quote from: Southeastern Annex4421 on February 22, 2010, 07:01:06 PM

Quote from: OrionFlyer on February 20, 2010, 01:04:40 PM
Have all the LFAs been delivered?

When will the new ones arrive?

Oh yeah. I forgot about the second order of LFAs. According to the link below they won't be delivered until around June. So there is still a lot of time left for the Flx E and Bs.

http://www.wmata.com/stimulus/project_details.cfm?P=Replacement%20of%20Oldest%20Buses

Must be more because there are likee 100+ Flxibles left.

That's what I was thinking....How many Bs are left?

There's probably about 120 or so Flxibles left.  Most of the 104 E's are still on the road with a few D's and maybe 15-20 B's.

I dread seeing more LFAs come, but I guess it could be worse.

I do hope if they are more LFAs after the next order its clean diesel LFAs I just wanna see a break from Hybrids, until 2012.