I trust you all don't listen to NPR and hear ads for the 'New Metro Bus". Catoe et al are pushing the new buses and for that ad line to work the buses have to look (not just be) new and those bullet buses whether they be nabis or new flyer do that. Also note like the Metro Local and Express schemes, LA had these bullet buses. Anyone notice a coincidence?
There is some value in sleek style lines, though I think the LFR does that, but AS A DAILY RIDER WHO *DEPENDS* ON METROBUS TO GET ME AROUND, I'd rather wait 15 minutes tops for a Borg-like Skoda ETB in SF than fritter away for an HOUR for a DE42LFA ... As a fare- and tax-paying passenger, I am actually INSULTED that these things are running around on the same tired, inefficient routes, providing the same unreliable service, dunked in glitter and called the "new" Metrobus. Yes, I know about the Limiteds, but I live in the 'burbs...all we got is REX and that does nothing if you don't live on Richmond Hwy, and they're about to have ANOTHER set of public hearings unless they already had them (third in four years) about improving service on the 28A/B and still NOTHING has happened. I take a 29N home from work that is regularly 20 minutes late, never on time, sometimes it's an LFA, sometimes it's an Orion V, sometimes a VI, I don't give a damn, I'm tired, it's cold, I just wanna go home, thank god for NextBus when it works. Look here comes an AT8 right on time going the same way and I ride for free! To hell with you New Metrobus, I can't wait to buy a car.
Quote from: Tristan on November 10, 2009, 08:18:41 AM
There is some value in sleek style lines, though I think the LFR does that, but AS A DAILY RIDER WHO *DEPENDS* ON METROBUS TO GET ME AROUND, I'd rather wait 15 minutes tops for a Borg-like Skoda ETB in SF than fritter away for an HOUR for a DE42LFA ... As a fare- and tax-paying passenger, I am actually INSULTED that these things are running around on the same tired, inefficient routes, providing the same unreliable service, dunked in glitter and called the "new" Metrobus. Yes, I know about the Limiteds, but I live in the 'burbs...all we got is REX and that does nothing if you don't live on Richmond Hwy, and they're about to have ANOTHER set of public hearings unless they already had them (third in four years) about improving service on the 28A/B and still NOTHING has happened. I take a 29N home from work that is regularly 20 minutes late, never on time, sometimes it's an LFA, sometimes it's an Orion V, sometimes a VI, I don't give a damn, I'm tired, it's cold, I just wanna go home, thank god for NextBus when it works. Look here comes an AT8 right on time going the same way and I ride for free! To hell with you New Metrobus, I can't wait to buy a car.
So where's the N
That's Royal Street for you. As for Nextbus, Orbital sucks anyway because it konks out alot and just plain sucks. Siemens would have been better.
I totally agree with Tristan. They can push these new "bullet" buses with flashy paint jobs all they want. Sure, people may look and say that looks nice and/or modern, but trust me.... That will get old very quickly when the bus is not on-time and you just want to get home. I'm OK with nice-looking buses, but in my opinion... It's good reliable service first. It's one thing when you're looking at the nice sleek new bus on display somewhere. It's another when you're trying to get to work, home or whatever. In the real world on a cold winter morning or a sweltering hot afternoon, most people just care that a bus shows up on-time (and hopefully the heat or A/C is working). Whether that bus is a fresh new LFA or a 9 year old Orion V is not going to matter much to Joe and Jane Rider.
All that regular riders really care about are consistent on time reliability (given the vagaries of traffic) and a safe clean vehicle with a courteous operator. Everything else is PR (or BS).
Although some posters have mentioned European styling elements of some buses the reality is that the vast majority of European manufacturers build boring boxes on wheels, most of which resemble each other. Only the UK's Wright (StreetCar/BRT), France's Iris Bus (Civis) and Belgium's VDL (Phileas) buck that trend, none of which have sold in any volume anywhere.
The interiors of Euro buses are rather Spartan, yet efficient for passenger flow with lots of hand holds. Anyone remember WMATA's AM Generals with carpeting??
All of these Design "enhancements" are PR tactics to attract people who otherwise avoid the bus like the plague, as though this superficial eye candy will trick newbies into thinking they're not really riding a bus. But as Tristan might say, if the service ain't s---t it doesn't matter what you're riding in.
Youch - I'd love some buses that didn't look just like the old ones.
On that note, the new buses/design/scheme is a start. I mean, c'mon, when I was riding the NABI 60-BRT on the U8, people turned their heads and looked at the vehicle. That doesn't happen often - buses are often considered ignorable white noise or worse... You can upgrade the service all you want with buses that look like they came from the 1980s, but it's hard to get those who generally ignore buses to just take a second glance.
I know in terms of "Big R", when I see pics of the Baby Gs running on former cutaway routes, I've been taking notice. "Oh! There's a 53?" etc. Now that you have their attention, then show them how service has/will improve! WMATA used to try that with the "brandings".
I would hope that they would continue with the upgrades to the service, but Catoe is trying to undo a lot of damage caused by neglect of the Metrobus system. There's so much to do, and a good bit has been done already!
Give it time...and yell at your local officials to make sure WMATA has it's funding and is held accountable to provide decent service. As cool as it is to have all of these different systems out there, it's kind of shameful that they exist and are so well developed now. WMATA really leaves a lot of holes out there in the DC Area.
By the way, I'm thoroughly amused by the amount of complaints about "too many New Flyers". At least you have variety in your Flyers, and at least you have a considerable amount of buses that aren't New Flyers.
Where I hail from, we're looking at replacing the last batch of non-New Flyer 40 foot buses with the current batch of New Flyer [slow]brids. All of the New Flyers in the fleet, save for the E40LFRs, share the same look.
Quote from: 79MetroExtraMD on November 10, 2009, 08:45:22 AM
Quote from: Tristan on November 10, 2009, 08:18:41 AM
There is some value in sleek style lines, though I think the LFR does that, but AS A DAILY RIDER WHO *DEPENDS* ON METROBUS TO GET ME AROUND, I'd rather wait 15 minutes tops for a Borg-like Skoda ETB in SF than fritter away for an HOUR for a DE42LFA ... As a fare- and tax-paying passenger, I am actually INSULTED that these things are running around on the same tired, inefficient routes, providing the same unreliable service, dunked in glitter and called the "new" Metrobus. Yes, I know about the Limiteds, but I live in the 'burbs...all we got is REX and that does nothing if you don't live on Richmond Hwy, and they're about to have ANOTHER set of public hearings unless they already had them (third in four years) about improving service on the 28A/B and still NOTHING has happened. I take a 29N home from work that is regularly 20 minutes late, never on time, sometimes it's an LFA, sometimes it's an Orion V, sometimes a VI, I don't give a damn, I'm tired, it's cold, I just wanna go home, thank god for NextBus when it works. Look here comes an AT8 right on time going the same way and I ride for free! To hell with you New Metrobus, I can't wait to buy a car.
So where's the N
That's Royal Street for you. As for Nextbus, Orbital sucks anyway because it konks out alot and just plain sucks. Siemens would have been better.
Royal doesn't have LFAs or Orion VIs - this is one of the few West Ox runs I speak of.
You know it kills me how everybody bad talks WMATA so what? WMATA is a bad T/A because of these "waste of plastics" the LFAs. Gimmie a break I'd rather us have a diverse fleet than looking at the same buses, once again like Ken said 4 wheels and a seat, but wait they're hybrids oh thats right now I see it, most of yall hate hybrids nope WMATA hybrids, If Ride-On gets new buses everybody praises them "OH WOW RIDE-ON HAS NEW BUSES WOOOO" WMATA "Oh I don't think they're good enough they are a waste" Answer this If the LFAs were CNG then I woundn't be saying this and all this "Waste of plastic" crap wouldn't be on here. But don't get me wrong I'm not saying your opinions don't matter I just feel there's alot of jealousy toward WMATA because its one of the best T/A's in the world hands down, and I wonder what the converation will be in 2012 when the new Southeastern opens and if I said "IF" Catoe orders C42LFAs.
I'm down for whatever WMATA gets Butas long as we don't get too many I don't care what WMATA gets because I'm a true WMATA rep I actually appriciate WMATA I feel if and being DASH, Fairfax Connector or whateva jus be glad there is one that has buses that get you from point A to point B I mean its like A good friend told me they're other countries that would kill to be like our T/A so appriciate what you have and if you don't like WMATA don't say anything, Its funny I like everything that DASH has, that Connector has, I ride certain buses all the time and I have never complained about how they look maybe the service half the time but other than that I never complained any T/A in the DMV area.
Quote from: Annex4421 on November 10, 2009, 10:28:11 PM
You know it kills me how everybody bad talks WMATA so what? WMATA is a bad T/A because of these "waste of plastics" the LFAs. Gimmie a break I'd rather us have a diverse fleet than looking at the same buses, once again like Ken said 4 wheels and a seat, but wait they're hybrids oh thats right now I see it, most of yall hate hybrids nope WMATA hybrids, If Ride-On gets new buses everybody praises them "OH WOW RIDE-ON HAS NEW BUSES WOOOO" WMATA "Oh I don't think they're good enough they are a waste" Answer this If the LFAs were CNG then I woundn't be saying this and all this "Waste of plastic" crap wouldn't be on here. But don't get me wrong I'm not saying your opinions don't matter I just feel there's alot of jealousy toward WMATA because its one of the best T/A's in the world hands down, and I wonder what the converation will be in 2012 when the new Southeastern opens and if I said "IF" Catoe orders C42LFAs.
I'm down for whatever WMATA gets Butas long as we don't get too many I don't care what WMATA gets because I'm a true WMATA rep I actually appriciate WMATA I feel if and being DASH, Fairfax Connector or whateva jus be glad there is one that has buses that get you from point A to point B I mean its like A good friend told me they're other countries that would kill to be like our T/A so appriciate what you have and if you don't like WMATA don't say anything, Its funny I like everything that DASH has, that Connector has, I ride certain buses all the time and I have never complained about how they look maybe the service half the time but other than that I never complained any T/A in the DMV area.
OK - I can't speak for anyone else, but I can address your statements on my own behalf. First: We're all bus fans, but I think while some us can separate from fan stuff and real world practicality, I'm not sure you're doing the same. You're statements are that of a bus fan and I have news for you. We're a very tiny minority amongst the many, many thousands of people using WMATA daily.
Also, you'd have to look long and hard to find a post in which I put WMATA down. Sure, I don't always agree with their decisions, but I don't dislike the agency. I like a diverse fleet too, but I can see where rostering a fleet of number types of buses is not practical. Example: If you know about the commercial airlines you'll know that Southwest is one (if not the best) of the best run airlines in the country. A big part of Southwest's success is that their entire fleet is 100% B-737 planes.
I'm not seeing the jealousy part you mention, nor am I seeing the big bru haha about Ride On's new buses.
I'm not trying to insult you, but I honestly don't understand how you've come to these conclusions and I think you've totally missed the point. One more thing I can tell you is that the powertrain has absolutely nothing to do with my objection to them. I'm simply against the waste (with no added benefit) that goes into the LFA period. It doesn't matter if it's CNG, LNG, diesel, hybrid or whatever.
Again - Non-artic buses have 6 wheels.
I'm just curious where you got this notion that WMATA is one of the best TA's in the world -- have you been outside of America at all? I've seen muuuuch better. Are you just getting this from what someone told you? You're entitled to your opinion, but you can't stuff it down our throats and expect and force us to believe it, especially if you don't have any comparisons to back it up.
And where are you getting this that people don't like hybrids? We had a practical discussion as to how their advantages fade off at highway speed and suddenly we "hate" them? I suggest before you post another response to this thread that you go back and read everything very carefully because you're jumping on people for conclusions that you yourself are making out of stuff that wasn't said or didn't happen.
Ok I'm not trying to force anybody to believe anything I just feel people complain about buses for dumb reasons. And I read everything I know what I'm saying, I say what others don't and I've done my homework because when the NABI 60 BRT's came out almost everybody was excited to see them and what is it really a remixed LFW jus like the LFA is a remixed LF or LFR and I say what is on my mind and only mines, and what do you mean comparisons I stated it already as for WMATA being one of the best T/A's in the world like you said you've seen better, so being ONE of the best isn't saying you're the better than all. I think you're being a WMATA hater and you rather wait 15 minutes tops for a Borg-like Skoda ETB in SF than fritter away for an HOUR for a DE42LFA and how are you insulted you don't work for WMATA and what you wait for a bus it doesn't show up so now you get mad and hate the bus you're in Virginia and the LFA probably don't run where you're based most of the time, look at PG county where people actually wait and hour for a bus they don't care about how the bus looks all they care about is getting from point A to point B, and so should you I mean ok WMATA gets LFR for example and you think wow this bus looks good but it's performance suck epic blow for you, and ok you think hybrids are pointless on highways I think someone mentioned it but if thats the case I think they wouldn't have been ordered in the 1st place I mean how else do they get here unless I'm wrong and they come by train, I'm not jumping on anybody and what I mentioned earlier is what has been said, maybe I called somebody out and they're in their feelings. I'm not trying to start some beef or anything I'm just one of those people who have different opinions than everybody else and suddenly I'm wrong or I'm not doing something right that makes me laugh I'm done with this discussion.
I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of opinions on this topic.
It is true that agencies should utilize money to its fullest to optimize service levels, but it doesn't mean product branding should be neglected. Having a decent amount of service and having flashy buses do work towards the same goal, but one does not substitute for the other. You have the dependent, or inelastic demographics of riders who will use the bus no matter what kind of vehicle shows up at their stop or how crappy it looks. There's no doubt in my mind they aren't affected at all by some futuristic design, flashy paint job, and blinging rims. But remember, these riders are not going to be around forever, just as with everything else in this society; people come and go. One day or another, every single rider who rides today will no longer be riding in the future, that's why it is a constant responsibility for transit agencies, businesses, restaurants, and so forth to attract new riders and replenish their customer base. Public perception of transit is a major factor in people's decision to choose transit over other modes of transportation. Sure, it may not be an exact science nor is it something that can be measured definitively and proven by statistics, but this is why corportations and businesses spend millions, if not billions of dollars of money just on marketing and advertisement. Before people become regular transit users, chances are; the VERY first perception they get of transit is not what is printed on the timetable, but is the sight and image of the bus itself on the streets. Even when they are attracted enough to pick up a schedule, the very first thing they see on the schedule is a picture of a bus.
Having blinging buses also help break common stereotypes people often have on transit. It may not be as predominate in DC but I see it out here in Lafayette, IN a LOT. A lot of (upper-middle class, mommy and daddy buy me a car) kids come to school here at Purdue with the conditioned mindset of "Oh no! Transit = Black people and crime and whatnot!" However as the kids spend more time here, we do see a trend of increasing ridership, and a LOT of feedback that we receive from our riders are complementing how good our buses look. Those complements only increased exponentially when we added more and more BRT Gilligs and Hybrids to the fleet. As a matter of fact, a lot of people here cannot tell the difference between a diesel BRT and a hybrid BRT. I've seen countless comments complement a random diesel BRT as a "hybrid". But they can tell the difference between a diesel BRT and a regular diesel Advantage.
As far as money goes, I believe branding and modernizing bus styles is a wise investment. I don't know exactly how much more expensive an LFA is over an LFR. But the number for the BRT package has been said to be about $17,000. Thats a bus you're going to be using for 12 years at the very least, that same bus is also going to be one of your tools for attracting choice riders to build your ridership base. That $17,000 investment you make is going to last you 12 years. When people are choosing between a car and a bus, they're going to be deciding between a brand new, state of the art, latest design Honda whatever. And the bus they will see on the streets is whatever the transit agency decided to buy 5, 6, 8, 12 years ago. Transit needs to constantly compete with all the other modes and unfornately for this industry, we are at a disadvantage; we have to think well ahead of our time, 12 or so years in advance. Whereas in the auto industry, they get to change their lineup and design every year.
This doesn't mean I don't believe in adding service though. When you weigh the two, I'm all for improving and updating image, I'm all for adding service. But if it comes down to the option of giving UP service for image, service comes first. But that isn't the case as spending for capital investment versus operational money is like comparing apples and oranges.
In a nutshell, you need to touch base with your existing riders by providing adequate service to retain them. You also need to touch base with potential riders, the ones who will be our ridership base after this current generation is gone. A new lifelong transit rider is born as simply enough as a child going "mommy, look at that shiny, bright, bulletlike bus, can we ride it?!". Perception by your potential riders goes unseen, noticed, does not stand out in cold hard numbers, and it is an inexact science, but I believe it is an essential part of keeping this industry alive.
Dude that has to be the lonest run-on sentence I have ever tried to read. If you're trying to make a point (or several), some commas, periods, and returns would go a long way to helping you get it across. I'm not knocking your grammar to be mean and insulting and I hope it doesn't come off that way, I'm just telling you that it's hard for people to understand you if you post one long unpunctuated blob of text.
I tried to break it down so I could answer your points, but I wonder if I wasted my time...
[Ok I'm not trying to force anybody to believe anything I just feel people complain about buses for dumb reasons.]
[And I read everything I know what I'm saying, I say what others don't and I've done my homework because when the NABI 60 BRT's came out almost everybody was excited to see them and what is it really a remixed LFW jus like the LFA is a remixed LF or LFR and I say what is on my mind and only mines, ]
>>What I'm saying is that you aren't really paying full attention to what people are saying, or it's not obvious from your responses. From what you say, it looks like you pick one word out of a sentence and jump on top of it. There will be examples below.
[and what do you mean comparisons I stated it already as for WMATA being one of the best T/A's in the world like you said you've seen better, so being ONE of the best isn't saying you're the better than all. ]
>> Forgive me - you did say WMATA is *one* of the best TAs in the world. I still think if you had real criteria and did a concise ranking, WMATA would not be in the top 10 -- there's just a lot better going on out there, you should try to see it at some point. Ask someone like WMATAGMOAGH who has been all over the world to see other systems. Admittedly, a lot of their problems stem from the anti-transit mentality in America that Ray spoke of, but some American cities like San Francisco have managed to break through that.
[I think you're being a WMATA hater and you rather wait 15 minutes tops for a Borg-like Skoda ETB in SF than fritter away for an HOUR for a DE42LFA and how are you insulted you don't work for WMATA and what you wait for a bus it doesn't show up so now you get mad and hate the bus you're in Virginia and the LFA probably don't run where you're based most of the time, ]
>>I am a WMATA hater when they feed us all this BS about "the new Metrobus" just because they overspent on vehicles, yet my bus still isn't on time. I get DE37LFAs on that trip that I spoke of sometimes, other times I get Orion Vs, other times I get Orion VIs -- either way, it's 20 minutes late and the sleek lines of the LFA don't make me any less irritated about it being late. People are going to see the LFAs and think "wow that looks good" and maybe they'll come ride them, but then when they find out how unreliable or overcrowded the service can be, they'll hop back in their cars. You want to get personal with it? I think you're a WMATA lover who would stick with them no matter what, even if every route ran every 2 hours and the fare went up to $4 for local service. I'm half joking though so don't trip.
[look at PG county where people actually wait and hour for a bus they don't care about how the bus looks all they care about is getting from point A to point B, and so should you ]
>>See this is where I say READ CAREFULLY -- because that's EXACTLY what I'm saying. I don't care WHAT shows up as long as its clean and on time, but headways better than 1 hour would help public perception. We have some at DASH too and if we had the funding, we'd get rid of them.
I mean ok WMATA gets LFR for example and you think wow this bus looks good but it's performance suck epic blow for you, and ok you think hybrids are pointless on highways I think someone mentioned it but if thats the case I think they wouldn't have been ordered in the 1st place I mean how else do they get here unless I'm wrong and they come by train,
>>Here's another example of you either not paying complete attention or just not thinking. A heavy duty transit bus is designed to last at least 12 years. They don't build the bus for the ONE TIME it gets delivered, they build it to survive for TWELVE YEARS in the environment they're supposed to be in. Similarly, while deadheading is an issue to consider, that generally only takes like one hour out of what could be an 18-hour block of work. So, the fuel economy of hybrids decreases on highways -- you're jumping on that as if we're saying hybrids suck. I for one have a very high opinion of them and hope more agencies will purchase them, and I've never said anything to the contrary -- all I'm saying is that if you are a starter and you have one route that spends most of its time at highway speeds like the B30 and another route that works in stop-and-go traffic, and you have one diesel and one hybrid, you put the hybrid on the stop-and-go route and the diesel on the highway route.
This whole conversation about hybrids started when someone said "yay hybrids for the B30" and one person said that a hybrid is just not a good bus to put on the B30 -- another example of you not reading carefully, because again, no one said hybrids suck in general, all of us who responded are just trying to say that a hybrid bus's advantage is in stop-and-go traffic.
[I'm not jumping on anybody and what I mentioned earlier is what has been said, maybe I called somebody out and they're in their feelings. I'm not trying to start some beef or anything I'm just one of those people who have different opinions than everybody else and suddenly I'm wrong or I'm not doing something right that makes me laugh I'm done with this discussion.]
I don't think anyone here takes too much of this stuff personally, at least I hope they don't...so you shouldn't either. All I'm saying is that your responses have been to things people weren't really trying to say, as I've pointed out here.
Quote from: aznboy4305 on November 11, 2009, 10:21:42 AM
I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of opinions on this topic.
...
quote author=aznboy4305 link=topic=1127.msg11387#msg11387 date=1257952902]
I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of opinions on this topic.
....
I understand your points, but overall we're in disagreement. I can understanding trying to make transit an "attractive" option. So they'll do their marketing to make the public aware of the service they offer and so on. However, I'm certain that to Jane/Joe Rider, the flashy paint schemes and modern styling goes out the window pretty quickly. That said, they will notice bold paint schemes and modern styling in a positive way. However, I seriously doubt that a good-looking bus is enough to persuade someone to use a particular transit system.
I remember in my teen days of the early 1980s when Advanced Design Buses (ADB) were coming along. Everyone noticed them because of their sleek new design and the electronic destination sign with P/R messages and so on. People actually talked about the "new buses" for a bit, but the novelty of these new advance designs faded rather quickly. Fast forward some years: My regular barber shop is on 4th St, NW near to Blair Road. So the 50s and 60s to/from Takoma Station pass by. I was in the shop one day when a DE42LFA passed by and it caught the attention of a guy in the shop. He said something like... Yo, check out that Metrobus. One of the others guys answered yes, as he had seen a couple of them already. I'm sure that died down real quick as they probably have little or no interest in buses.
Also, back when WMATA first started operating the Orion II, one of my co-workers who know's I have an interest in transit ask me about a "retarted-looking noisy Metrobus" she started seeing in Georgetown. I say this all to say that I believe the average Joe will notice a "different" transit vehicle. However, even if they like the way it looks, I seriously doubt it would sway many toward using the service.
Some other examples I know of involves NYCTA, MTAB and one of the former PBLs - NYBS. When NYCTA started getting the MCI for express service, some people would pass up a transit Orion V or RTS with suburban seating in hopes of getting a MCI. I can understand this at MTAB since they still have the occasional local bus show up on express runs.
Also at NYBS some years ago, they got that small group of Orion V suburbans. The NYBS regualrs immediately didn't like these buses as they "seemed too much like a local bus". This is probably because they didn't have dark-tinted windows. Anyways those buses didn't last long at NYBS before they were shipped out.
I just asked one of my co-workers about this sort of thing while consciously trying not to lead her. Her response is exactly what I expected and what I believe the mindset is of the average person in regards to mass transit. She said "They new buses look nice, but as long as it's relatively clean (inside) and it arriving on schedule are the only important factors" to her.
To summarize... I think the average person will notice new colors and designs, and may like it. However, I doubt that's enough to get or keep them on-board. Also, I'm certain that if the service is unreliable, they're not going to care at all about the new designs and colors.
And aznboy, you have a valid point, a really valid point, one that is wise to consider. However, if WMATA doesn't improve their service, the investment in "new New Look" buses will be in vain because they'll come out to see it but then get turned right back off.
Look at the 30 line -- even after the restructuring, it is still plagued with bunching. AND IT GETS DE42LFAs ALL THE TIME! Yet you have people who saw or heard the ads and the buses who then checked the schedule, came out for a ride, and waited...and waited...and waited...20 minutes, 30 minutes, I get comments about it all the time! Then THREE LFAs pull up at once! The NEW METROBUS??? Give me a break! It's just like the OLD Metrobus, except with fancy vehicles now, I'm getting back in my car!
One day at DASH, I actually dealt with a Metro employee who could ride Metrobus to work for free but pays to take DASH instead, because she knows the bus is going to be on time and be clean and she's gonna get where she's going...and all we have is boring ass Orion Vs and Gillig Phantom boxes. Not saying we're better than Metro, so don't trip, but I'm just saying - these LFAs aren't gonna do the trick if they don't step up their game.
The only way to really solve it is to do what Circulator does and have supervisors on the route making sure buses are spaced out.
Quote from: Tristan on November 11, 2009, 03:53:29 PM
And aznboy, you have a valid point, a really valid point, one that is wise to consider. However, if WMATA doesn't improve their service, the investment in "new New Look" buses will be in vain because they'll come out to see it but then get turned right back off.
Look at the 30 line -- even after the restructuring, it is still plagued with bunching. AND IT GETS DE42LFAs ALL THE TIME! Yet you have people who saw or heard the ads and the buses who then checked the schedule, came out for a ride, and waited...and waited...and waited...20 minutes, 30 minutes, I get comments about it all the time! Then THREE LFAs pull up at once! The NEW METROBUS??? Give me a break! It's just like the OLD Metrobus, except with fancy vehicles now, I'm getting back in my car!
One day at DASH, I actually dealt with a Metro employee who could ride Metrobus to work for free but pays to take DASH instead, because she knows the bus is going to be on time and be clean and she's gonna get where she's going...and all we have is boring ass Orion Vs and Gillig Phantom boxes. Not saying we're better than Metro, so don't trip, but I'm just saying - these LFAs aren't gonna do the trick if they don't step up their game.
The only way to really solve it is to do what Circulator does and have supervisors on the route making sure buses are spaced out.
So what? thats one lady's opinion, I'm so sick of people downing WMATA like other buses don't be late, you brag so much about DASH but look who catches a WMATA bus hmmm nothing personal but its kinda hypicritical to me. Maybe you should consider the fact that maybe it isn't WMATA's fault that their service is bad maybe they did it becasue of other cutthroat agencies in the area. And who said the new buses can actually improve service. I rode DASH buses a couple time and I'LL admit they do be clean and prompt, and WMATA is not to blame for buses being late you forget there is a world going on out here and things happen traffic accidents, bus failures, emergencies etc not to mention slow people who don't want to do there part so that messes it up for everybody. WMATA can step up into stilettos all I care but I bet my life the same things happen over and over again. So what's to complain about again?
No I take that back WMATA is kinda at fault because of the drivers they hire some of them are the reason the buses are late and then how the buses run in most areas is terrible but I wonder does the government have something to do with it also, the 30s seem fine to me (I don't know where you've been) just like where I live sometimes three M6 buses come at the same time but comming from someone who lives on the line traffic is to blame because it gets backed up during rush hour. Downtown gets backed up almost all the time so like I stated don't blame WMATA for everything because things happen out of WMATA's control. So if you don't like how public transportaion runs then DON'T RIDE IT, otherwise deal with it don't talk if you don't want to do anything about it to change it.
Wayne-
I see what you're saying, but that's the same with any advertisement. When I or most people see a commercial for a Hyundai Genesis during the Super Bowl, I don't go out and buy one right away. Great commercial, I'll forget about it as soon as the next commercial starts. Hell, I bet most of the people who saw those commercials don't buy one anytime in the immediate future either. But does that mean Hyundai made an unwise decision to spend $1.whatever Million dollars on a 30 second ad? If and when I decide to go out and buy a new car sometime far ahead into the future, Hyundai won't pop up into my mind as a company that sells complete junk that I absolutely despise. They might actually have a CHANCE to get looked at since I won't automatically think Hyundai = Ugly ass POS that I otherwise wouldn't even give a crap about, all due to an advertisement campaign.
When gas prices went up to $4 a gallon, your average Joe or Jane who has driven everywhere her entire life and has never stepped foot on transit, will start considering of ways to save money on gas. But she might not even THINK of transit when the only mental image she has of transit is an old dirty bus riddled with crime and "those" people. She MIGHT actually think about transit, or at least consider it enough to pick up a schedule and explore her options if she never had that default "bus = the devil" image stuck to the back of her head. And trust me I see a LOTTT of that stereotype out here.
Tristan-
I don't think I've ever rode the "new and improved 30/Metro" or whatever they dub it now. From what it sounds (and it sounds like it hasn't changed at all), Metro needs to get their act up in operations and perhaps scheduling. I just never really understood how equipment and image related service levels, they're actually two completely different departments. I was just saying that just because operations is screwing up or service is just awful, marketing shouldn't stop doing what its does. They each have their own mission and purpose, and the poor performance of one isn't usually BECAUSE of what the other is doing. Is WMATA putting the LFAs out there and calling that a "New and Improved" MetroBus in itself? Maybe I'm just misunderstanding the basis of these complaints to begin with.
Quote from: aznboy4305 on November 11, 2009, 08:24:20 PM
Wayne-
I see what you're saying, but that's the same with any advertisement. When I or most people see a commercial for a Hyundai Genesis during the Super Bowl, I don't go out and buy one right away. Great commercial, I'll forget about it as soon as the next commercial starts. Hell, I bet most of the people who saw those commercials don't buy one anytime in the immediate future either. But does that mean Hyundai made an unwise decision to spend $1.whatever Million dollars on a 30 second ad? If and when I decide to go out and buy a new car sometime far ahead into the future, Hyundai won't pop up into my mind as a company that sells complete junk that I absolutely despise. They might actually have a CHANCE to get looked at since I won't automatically think Hyundai = Ugly ass POS that I otherwise wouldn't even give a crap about, all due to an advertisement campaign.
When gas prices went up to $4 a gallon, your average Joe or Jane who has driven everywhere her entire life and has never stepped foot on transit, will start considering of ways to save money on gas. But she might not even THINK of transit when the only mental image she has of transit is an old dirty bus riddled with crime and "those" people. She MIGHT actually think about transit, or at least consider it enough to pick up a schedule and explore her options if she never had that default "bus = the devil" image stuck to the back of her head. And trust me I see a LOTTT of that stereotype out here.
Tristan-
I don't think I've ever rode the "new and improved 30/Metro" or whatever they dub it now. From what it sounds (and it sounds like it hasn't changed at all), Metro needs to get their act up in operations and perhaps scheduling. I just never really understood how equipment and image related service levels, they're actually two completely different departments. I was just saying that just because operations is screwing up or service is just awful, marketing shouldn't stop doing what its does. They each have their own mission and purpose, and the poor performance of one isn't usually BECAUSE of what the other is doing. Is WMATA putting the LFAs out there and calling that a "New and Improved" MetroBus in itself? Maybe I'm just misunderstanding the basis of these complaints to begin with.
As for scheduling, they really need to do something about that, but yet, it's Trapeze. Even Adam told me it was crap to deal with. I've seen the paddles and such and yea, they suck. For a system like Metro with the different kind of service patterns and such, it seems like HASTUS might have worked (look at LA, Chicago, and NYC).
Then again, DC is a traffic hell. Everything is unpredictable especially when you have MD and VA folks coming into the same areas and with so many different ways in and out of the city alongside busy transit routes, scheduling just can't come close to how it is.
As for the new and improved 30s, the 37 and 39 pretty much are probably what they are referring to, but the 32 and 36 are just still slow. I do wish the 37 ran all day. I heard alot of people want that (I just can't stand tourists in Georgetown and everybody trying to park).
I'll just add these little bits about the 30 line as it relates to the topic of Scheduling that is near and dear to my heart.
It's my general belief that longer lines, especially a line that has traffic congestion in one or more areas is NEVER going to be able to be scheduled in a punctual manner, particularly if the rider demand on that corridor warrants 15 minute or better headways.
Since the traffic conditions are so variable and the length of the line is so long whereas the likelihood to encounter (or not encounter) such delays is so varied, the ability to create a punctual schedule is pretty much impossible. Add demand variances and/or ramp usage, and a schedule becomes only a best guess. Scheduling Software is not going to make or break that challenge in nearly every case, whether it be Trapeze, Hastus, Init, or whatever. Even if you pad the layover on every block at FH to be 20+ minutes to try to ensure ontime departures, you still wind up with NBs (and SBs) coming through G-town in packs as the factors start to play at the OTP.
The point of my rant is that Looooooooong bus lines to me are of faulty design. Yeah, gosh golly, Politicians are fine with them because they are less likely to hear the sob story of the guy with the walker who has to get off and cross the street to wait for another bus to take him where he wants to go, as longer lines are more likely to accomodate a greater number of one seat rides. As a result, agencies like them because on paper, they look "cheap" since that one route does it all, where two routes would likely have to overlap unless there was a clear cut breaking point in the line.
However, you get what you pay for, and the result is lines like the 30's, that are prone to bunching after long waits. The flaws are in the design, but without a dedicated effort to revamp the route, folks will continue to wait extra time for that one seat ride, when they could have been to their destination with a transfer.
Of course this could all be part of that ploy aimed at cutt.... never mind.
As for the original "debate," I tend to side that an LFA adds little to no appeal over an LFR, which to me is the model that offers the balance point between sensible and practical. I also have my concerns as to which of the two will look more appealing in 6-8 years of equal levels of TLC.
Annex4421, I take metrobus at times because my company and WMATA actually have worked together on scheduling two similar routes to arrive between each other, instead of TheBus style arriving one behind the other...and the WMATA bus just happens to be the one scheduled to arrive as I'm getting off from work. Also, I take transit because a) I work in transit, in an administrative 9ish to 5ish position, and I believe more transit employees should use their service when possible, b) I live in the same city where I work...so I either take two buses home or two buses and a train for 1 stop, depending on transfer conditions...it generally takes abt 20-35 mins to get home -- it could be better but it's not too bad...and c) after rent, groceries, bills, etc, I can't afford a car...so what should I do, walk??
And I fully understand traffic conditions and whatnot leading to delays because I work in transit and I see what happens...but when you have the same bus 20 mins late every day, something needs to change and the average customer who has a choice is gonna give up taking that bus. Whether it's a V, VI, LFA, BRT, or whatever...so without fixing the service, the LFA is a waste of money if it's solely for marketing purposes.
Quote from: Tristan on November 12, 2009, 03:13:57 AM
Annex4421, I take metrobus at times because my company and WMATA actually have worked together on scheduling two similar routes to arrive between each other, instead of TheBus style arriving one behind the other...and the WMATA bus just happens to be the one scheduled to arrive as I'm getting off from work. Also, I take transit because a) I work in transit, in an administrative 9ish to 5ish position, and I believe more transit employees should use their service when possible, b) I live in the same city where I work...so I either take two buses home or two buses and a train for 1 stop, depending on transfer conditions...it generally takes abt 20-35 mins to get home -- it could be better but it's not too bad...and c) after rent, groceries, bills, etc, I can't afford a car...so what should I do, walk??
And I fully understand traffic conditions and whatnot leading to delays because I work in transit and I see what happens...but when you have the same bus 20 mins late every day, something needs to change and the average customer who has a choice is gonna give up taking that bus. Whether it's a V, VI, LFA, BRT, or whatever...so without fixing the service, the LFA is a waste of money if it's solely for marketing purposes.
Isn't the LFA here for environmental purposes too? At least you don't have wait on average an hour for a bus. People here would kill to have service like the REX or VA service (sort of) period. You whine and complain about a bus that's 20 minutes late but we have to deal with service way worse than that over here. "All we got is REX" Do you know how bad we need something like the REX over here? Then you go complaining about good buses. Remind you we have HDXs over here but do you see me moanin and complaining about them? No because they get me home everyday. I'd be one of the last people to complain about them. And I don't know what bus you catch that's 20 min late everyday. For someone who depends on Metro to get home everyday, you sure do a lot of complaining and you put down Metro a lot.
So what let the bus be late you gettin' home aren't you? Otherwise you would be walking then you only have yourself to blame. If you want a car go to an auction. Save up for one take at least like $10 or $20 out your check every week. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices to get things.
Quote from: 79MetroExtraMD on November 11, 2009, 08:49:29 PM
As for the new and improved 30s, the 37 and 39 pretty much are probably what they are referring to, but the 32 and 36 are just still slow. I do wish the 37 ran all day. I heard alot of people want that (I just can't stand tourists in Georgetown and everybody trying to park).
What about the 31 and 34. Don't they provide any relief?
Quote from: LandoverDivision on November 12, 2009, 08:25:29 AM
Isn't the LFA here for environmental purposes too? At least you don't have wait on average an hour for a bus. People here would kill to have service like the REX or VA service (sort of) period. You whine and complain about a bus that's 20 minutes late but we have to deal with service way worse than that over here. "All we got is REX" Do you know how bad we need something like the REX over here? Then you go complaining about good buses. Remind you we have HDXs over here but do you see me moanin and complaining about them? No because they get me home everyday. I'd be one of the last people to complain about them. And I don't know what bus you catch that's 20 min late everyday. For someone who depends on Metro to get home everyday, you sure do a lot of complaining and you put down Metro a lot.
So what let the bus be late you gettin' home aren't you? Otherwise you would be walking then you only have yourself to blame. If you want a car go to an auction. Save up for one take at least like $10 or $20 out your check every week. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices to get things.
I think you sort of substantiate the point being driven home among many here.
If WMATA's service levels and dependability are such that people will only use it if they have to, and will actively strive to find a way to abandon it at their first opportunity, then pimped out LFAs or "sexy NABIs" or whatever won't make a difference.
The more you travel, the more you actually encounter places where transit
INCLUDING BUSES is not the means of last resort or the "loser cruiser," but actually a viable and competitive alternative to driving that manages to bring a more accurate cross section of the cities they service, and not just transit reliant passengers who simply take what they are given all the while seeking an escape from using it. Sometimes, the variation from city to city can be dramatic.
If people are supposed to be simply resigned to "take it or leave it" and "stop whining" since "if you don't like it, buy a car," then a system will never be more than a means of last resort with an indifferent customer base. The powers that be who should be making policy decisions that improve this service will then ignore the more pressing and relavent service issues, while performing the flashy "window dressing improvements" of the cool looking new vehicle to show the media their commitment to transit, and nothing else.
Quote from: btconet on November 12, 2009, 10:38:54 AM
If people are supposed to be simply resigned to "take it or leave it" and "stop whining" since "if you don't like it, buy a car," then a system will never be more than a means of last resort with an indifferent customer base. The powers that be who should be making policy decisions that improve this service will then ignore the more pressing and relavent service issues, while performing the flashy "window dressing improvements" of the cool looking new vehicle to show the media their commitment to transit, and nothing else.
YES! However, it takes more than an agency's management to make a system work in both image and reliability to entice and keep riders.
A few things noone has ever mentioned is WMATA is paid for by our tax dollars. And when everyone is cursing the fact that tax dollars are wasted on extravagent expenditures, making the LFA purchase with our tax dollars would seem wasteful. If you are one of those people who are complaining about where your tax dollars are going, that we are paying too much money in taxes, which are being wasted on useless government programs and you think that the LFAs was money well spent, you could be considered a hypocrite. As many have said as a busfan having a diverse fleet is a dream, but if it means paying around $20,000 more per bus just to have the LFA package as compared to have a LFR package and not make a difference in fuel savings and ridership increases, having that LFA package would be a waste.
Now the one thing that makes the LFA probably not a waste is how aerodynamic that the bus is compared to the LFR package, and yes including the wheelcovers (ugh). The more aerodynamic a bus is made, the better the fuel savings based on how less wind resistant it is. Even though they look more aerodynamic it may look, would that make up the difference compared to the materials used to make that extra foot of bus. Are the materials lighter on the LFA compared to the materials used on the LFR package make a difference in fuel savings. Unless there is evidence to sway my opinion in either direction, I can't form real opinion of whether the LFAs would have been a waste of money compared to if WMATA bought the LFR instead.
If it's to attract riders, having a sleek, streamlined looking bus isn't going to get that car driver to choose transit. Sometimes the stuff inside the bus might make a better difference in doing that. If perse those same LFAs came with Wi-fi, and other attractive amenities (sp?), then that might attract a car driver to choose riding the bus instead of driving. Also we might hate it, but the tvs that WMATA might want to put on bus and rail, but it could attract people who have that perception of a bus as being a dirty, smoke belching, pee smelling beast. The fact that the having only a more modern looking bus isn't going to get that person who is thinking about riding transit, if that person sees that route running late all of the time and when they do see it it's packed. He is not going to get on that thing. Now if he sees the bus running more often and seeing that he can get a seat and that he can do his work on it, then that will change his opinion on whether to ride it or not.
As more my opinion on whether of the LFA is wasted money or not, I would need info to make that decision.
Quote from: Annex4421 on November 11, 2009, 05:24:47 PM
So if you don't like how public transportaion runs then DON'T RIDE IT, otherwise deal with it don't talk if you don't want to do anything about it to change it.
This is nonsense. People have a right to complain about poor service. And it's not just one person's opinion - there have been plenty of media reports about how poor Metrobus service is (check out this Washington Post article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/26/AR2005122601054.html)from 2005).
Are you related to John Catoe or some other WMATA bigwig? You're awfully sensitive to criticism of the agency.
Wes: Good point on the aerodynamics. I thought about that but didn't think it really applied to the low speeds that these buses generally reach. I would be interested to find out if they do indeed fare better than a standard bus.
We'd need something like a Ride On Gillig Advantage hybrid to race a DE42LFA and see what happens -- they both use the Allison hybrid package, but it's still apples to oranges...just the closest comparison I could think of.
RailBus63: Thanks for posting that article...I might review it and see how much has changed in the 4 years since it was posted...my sense of it is that, aside from the new buses and the new limited-stop routes, well not much.
Quote from: Tristan on November 13, 2009, 10:59:53 AM
Wes: Good point on the aerodynamics. I thought about that but didn't think it really applied to the low speeds that these buses generally reach. I would be interested to find out if they do indeed fare better than a standard bus.
We'd need something like a Ride On Gillig Advantage hybrid to race a DE42LFA and see what happens -- they both use the Allison hybrid package, but it's still apples to oranges...just the closest comparison I could think of.
RailBus63: Thanks for posting that article...I might review it and see how much has changed in the 4 years since it was posted...my sense of it is that, aside from the new buses and the new limited-stop routes, well not much.
I have a better race: MTA's 9000 hybrids vs the DE42LFA.
Yea that would work better - I was looking for a same-year Allison-based hybrid in the DC area to put up against an LFA but didn't even think about Baltimore. So would a lighter but not aerodynamic Baltimore 9000-series NF Hybrid do better on fuel economy than a heavier but more aerodynamic WMATA DE42LFA?
Of course, we don't really know the answer, but it's food for thought.
I don't think the LFAs would be that much better aerodynamically, especially at average transit speeds. There's a lot of mass in a bus too that provides plenty of momentum that would overcome most air resistance that would encounter a bus in normal transit operations, so any savings in drag reduction would be almost negligible I would think. Of course any savings in air resistance may be more substantial out in the country and on the highway as air resistance force does increase exponentially with speed.
Artics at Landover are a waste? Seriously do you listen to yourself? Service is NOT going to increase here so why don't WMATA get artics for let's say every division? Maybe rebuild some of them so they can fit artics? WES how do you live here and still don't know Landover needs artics?
And stop complaining about the LFAs. There's nothing wrong with them. All this crap about tax dollars is making me sick. Your tax dollars get spend on numerous things like streets and houses an things. The government wastes it once in a while on things but all you guys care about is how Metro spends it. Look at the other things your money gets spent on yet you bag on the LFAs. Wow just wow. Just like every other transit agency in America, they get whatever buses they want. Be glad you guys actually have a good T/A here. People around the country wish they had our buses or our kind of service. Just my opinion.
Quote from: LandoverDivision on November 13, 2009, 07:06:16 PM
Artics at Landover are a waste? Seriously do you listen to yourself? Service is NOT going to increase here so why don't WMATA get artics for let's say every division? Maybe rebuild some of them so they can fit artics? WES how do you live here and still don't know Landover needs artics?
And stop complaining about the LFAs. There's nothing wrong with them. All this crap about tax dollars is making me sick. Your tax dollars get spend on numerous things like streets and houses an things. The government wastes it once in a while on things but all you guys care about is how Metro spends it. Look at the other things your money gets spent on yet you bag on the LFAs. Wow just wow. Just like every other transit agency in America, they get whatever buses they want. Be glad you guys actually have a good T/A here. People around the country wish they had our buses or our kind of service. Just my opinion.
First of all, every garage doesn't need tics. Northern, Montgomery, and Bladensburg have high priority routes that need them. Western can't fit anything else there (I've been inside there and it's that small and even maneuvering around in a regular bus is a tight fit), Annex is just too antiquated and small (plus they can't handle hybrids due to the height restrictions), Four Mile had 2 just for the 5A, no other route really needed them because most of the routes overlap each other and provide good service, and West Ox definitely doesn't need them because they don't run too many high traffic routes (plus they're weekday only).
Secondly, you can't just tell someone to stop complaining about something just because you don't like it.
Thirdly, I'm pretty sure you're too young to even pay taxes like the rest of us, so don't even say that all of the dollars are going to waste where you obviously don't see the full picture.
Fourthly, TAs buy buses that have the lowest costs and they provide specifications to what they want. They choose the lowest bid to save money and to ensure a good number of buses they want. Lest we forget, WMATA receives
federal grants from the FTA.
Fifthly, chill out.
Yes but it so happens that the name of this website is the DC Area TRANSIT Zone, so we talk about TRANSIT...and if we want to have a HEALTHY, CIVILIZED discussion where there might be some criticism of something, that's our prerogative.
But it is not YOUR prerogative to come here and terminate discussions. You are NOT entitled to tell people to "shut up" and "change the subject" simply because you don't like the topic. Who made you guardian angel of the message boards where you feel like you have to come in here and end discussions??
Everyone here has the ability to SKIP THE THREAD if you DON'T WANT TO READ IT. THAT is the option you have; if you do not exercise it, you surrender your right to tell other people to stop talking about it.
ALL MEMBERS OF DCATZ: This is the LAST time I will state this. I JUST deleted where I had to explain this PUBLICLY to ANOTHER member today, and now I have to say it again. ANY MEMBER who feels the need to hijack a thread and tell people to stop that subject of conversation simply because *THEY* don't like the topic will be subject to IMMEDIATE and PERMANENT membership deletion. This is the final warning and we will not show mercy on this as I have with other issues, because showing mercy has not worked.
Exactly more people come to and go from Maryland, even my sister who hasn't rode a Metrobus in a while said PG needs service increase or longer buses. What does some of the forum fam have against artics? How do you vote for 3 door artics for the X2 knowing it doesn't need it but go against some divisions needing them. Ok I see yeah increase of service in PG County would be awsome, but think about it, more service = more people more dependent on WMATA which means more artics will be needed plus WMATA having more money. Brandon is right just about every division needs artics and some needs to get rebuilt to fit them. ALL I'm saying is increase service or the bus size one or the other. Another option could be a limited stop route but that might not work (Look at the 70, 71, 79). So its kinda of a argument for both sides. And stop with this LFA BS I understand some of the Fam hates them or dislikes them they're good buses ok it looks different and?.... at least some of you guys can actually see them without leaving your house or area etc. I live in southeast on the Annex line and the best thing we have are the D40LFR's. I mean I love them but it would be nice to see something different here but I live on an outdated garage and I may never see new buses again in my area but you don't see me complaining or moaning. *sigh* sorry about the 500 word essay but I jus needed to express and opinion. I'm not knocking anybody's opinion either.
Quote from: LandoverDivision on November 13, 2009, 07:06:16 PM
Artics at Landover are a waste? Seriously do you listen to yourself? Service is NOT going to increase here so why don't WMATA get artics for let's say every division? Maybe rebuild some of them so they can fit artics? WES how do you live here and still don't know Landover needs artics?
And stop complaining about the LFAs. There's nothing wrong with them. All this crap about tax dollars is making me sick. Your tax dollars get spend on numerous things like streets and houses an things. The government wastes it once in a while on things but all you guys care about is how Metro spends it. Look at the other things your money gets spent on yet you bag on the LFAs. Wow just wow. Just like every other transit agency in America, they get whatever buses they want. Be glad you guys actually have a good T/A here. People around the country wish they had our buses or our kind of service. Just my opinion.
Did you read the whole post or just pick and chose what you felt you wanted to see. I don't use all caps to make my point but understand...........
I SAID THAT LANDOVER ROUTES WOULD BE BETTER OFF IF THEY WERE INCREASED BUT DUE TO THE FACT THAT WMATA IS HAVING BUDGET PROBLEMS USING ARTICS IN THE SHORT RUN WOULD BE BETTER.
I don't know what your problem is and really I don't care, if you cannot read posts properly and respond to them with constructive criticism then don't read my posts.
UNDERSTAND.
I kinda miss the old Metrobus before these newfangled hybrids started showing up, and before Silver Spring was torn down. I miss the days where my bus stop box gave me a listing of all the departures from my specific stop, rather than just a full schedule, leaving it up to me to figure out when the bus comes. I miss the woodgrain interior and over-plush seats. I miss transmissions like Voith!
I hope this "new" Metrobus isn't just some stupid "look at me" and actually has some substance. Does anyone know if the K6 is overrun with these LFAs yet?
Quote from: RailBus63 on November 13, 2009, 10:29:00 AM
Quote from: Annex4421 on November 11, 2009, 05:24:47 PM
So if you don't like how public transportaion runs then DON'T RIDE IT, otherwise deal with it don't talk if you don't want to do anything about it to change it.
This is nonsense. People have a right to complain about poor service. And it's not just one person's opinion - there have been plenty of media reports about how poor Metrobus service is (check out this Washington Post article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/26/AR2005122601054.html)from 2005).
Are you related to John Catoe or some other WMATA bigwig? You're awfully sensitive to criticism of the agency.
1st of all I never said people diddn't have a right to complain, I said if you diddn't like it the don't ride the buses, and not all metrobus service is "poor" ok a bus is late, but not always, I live in DC so maybe the service isn't like how it is in MD but the samething Tristan said about waiting 20 minutes extra for a bus does make sense and it is true so how is it what I said is nonsense I just stated my opinion, oh and I don't have to be related to someone to defend the agency unlike some people I actually appriciate what we have yes I do wish WMATA was better and would spend they're money wisely but they do what they want with they're money, LIKE I SAID YOU DON'T LIKE IT DON T RIDE IT. We basicly can't do anything about it just sitting here talking smack lets get together and start a petition or something.
Quote from: WES on November 13, 2009, 10:37:52 PM
Did you read the whole post or just pick and chose what you felt you wanted to see. I don't use all caps to make my point but understand...........
I SAID THAT LANDOVER ROUTES WOULD BE BETTER OFF IF THEY WERE INCREASED BUT DUE TO THE FACT THAT WMATA IS HAVING BUDGET PROBLEMS USING ARTICS IN THE SHORT RUN WOULD BE BETTER.
I don't know what your problem is and really I don't care, if you cannot read posts properly and respond to them with constructive criticism then don't read my posts.
UNDERSTAND.
First of all don't say understand like you're my father or something. Second, Landover is better off with tics because there will NEVER be a service increase here. And I really don't care what your problem is. But don't sit up here and talk to me like I'm one of your lil friends. And for Ken, I'm 18 and I've had 4 jobs so I think I do have a right to complain about tax dollars also since I help my mother pay her bills so before you start saying I'm too young to complain about tax dollars (in which I'm not really doing) know your facts first before saying something.
EVERYONE! Please calm down and stop acting as if WMATA's taking artics from Landover to run full time on the U4....
PG peeps - band together and make sure someone who has a clue is in office. If that doesn't work, hound the heck out of council and whatever. Y'all need better transit service. It's pitiful down there, especially with the amount of people that rely on transit, but I question the amount of people that really get active in their government in that county so that they can make sure that decent bus service is provided for the community. You'd be surprised who will listen...especially in election season.
I think WMATA should be ashamed of itself, particularly in its WMATAbus division. Just about every municipality in the area has its own substantial fixed route transit service...transit service that these very municipalities are supposed to pay WMATA to do. I'm not saying that it's bad that they fill holes, but my goodness - WMATA-sized buses are everywhere! That's UNHEARD of up here! Why is WMATA not doing its job properly, especially with the operation of the Purple Line potentially going to B-more MTA *shudder*.
Finally, I wish your TA's in the area would work together to have regional weekly/monthly passes. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a significant amount of people that used multiple systems. Do y'all accept each other's passes?
BTW, I'm still mad that there are no daypasses down there... Even SEPTA realized the error of its ways and came out with a great daypass good for all of its modes! When will WMATA revisit this?
Hold your legislators accountable and you will see changes.
In fact, Landover division people...the county could probably do a good overhaul of PG THE BUS, eliminating duplicating [with WMATA] routes and revise others and free up some money for better WMATA service. Outside of the obvious F4 and overcrowding, what are other problem PG routes?
Does WMATA have public hearings?
I think if civilized people can have a civilized discussion then somethings can get done, it's how you carry yourself and present yourself to others. If you present yourself in a wrong way then people will not listen. If you present yourself in a civilized manner then they will take a note on your arguement. Unfortunately some people can't think that way and I am not going to stoop myself to someone's level who thinks that arguing nonsense is the best way to get their point across.
With that said.......
The problem with PG is the fact that those in the gubment don't really listen to the people. It took THREE expose's from Fox 5 before THE BUS started to fly right. It shouldn't take that many of them to change someone's behavior. THE BUS has problems, and they have improved themselves greatly but they have a long ways to go. Now that the economy is bad, increasing bus service isn't going to happen now. With that said some of THE BUS's routes should be changed now or better coordinated with WMATA routes that run along the same line so there can be less waits between buses or rerouted to serve customers, noone has tapped yet. The 14 for example runs along the F4 and I am not an expert on that line, but if it runs like the other THE BUS routes then it probably runs a few minutes before an F4 comes, which in this instance would be a good thing.
Actually I have sent a complaint letter to the county executive and where did that get me............it was sent to THE BUS and I never got a reply back.
I think for PG to change themselves on stuff like transit, they have to start listening to their constituents more. I have said that THE BUS has a HUGE opportunity to have more bus routes, improve it's service and create the situation to gain more riders.
Quote from: LandoverDivision on November 20, 2009, 02:16:24 PM
Quote from: WES on November 13, 2009, 10:37:52 PM
Did you read the whole post or just pick and chose what you felt you wanted to see. I don't use all caps to make my point but understand...........
I SAID THAT LANDOVER ROUTES WOULD BE BETTER OFF IF THEY WERE INCREASED BUT DUE TO THE FACT THAT WMATA IS HAVING BUDGET PROBLEMS USING ARTICS IN THE SHORT RUN WOULD BE BETTER.
I don't know what your problem is and really I don't care, if you cannot read posts properly and respond to them with constructive criticism then don't read my posts.
UNDERSTAND.
First of all don't say understand like you're my father or something. Second, Landover is better off with tics because there will NEVER be a service increase here. And I really don't care what your problem is. But don't sit up here and talk to me like I'm one of your lil friends. And for Ken, I'm 18 and I've had 4 jobs so I think I do have a right to complain about tax dollars also since I help my mother pay her bills so before you start saying I'm too young to complain about tax dollars (in which I'm not really doing) know your facts first before saying something.
I smell a ban looming.
Quote from: WES on November 21, 2009, 01:42:04 AM
I think if civilized people can have a civilized discussion then somethings can get done, it's how you carry yourself and present yourself to others. If you present yourself in a wrong way then people will not listen. If you present yourself in a civilized manner then they will take a note on your argument. Unfortunately some people can't think that way and I am not going to stoop myself to someone's level who thinks that arguing nonsense is the best way to get their point across.
With that said.......
The problem with PG is the fact that those in the gubment don't really listen to the people. It took THREE expose's from Fox 5 before THE BUS started to fly right. It shouldn't take that many of them to change someone's behavior. THE BUS has problems, and they have improved themselves greatly but they have a long ways to go. Now that the economy is bad, increasing bus service isn't going to happen now. With that said some of THE BUS's routes should be changed now or better coordinated with WMATA routes that run along the same line so there can be less waits between buses or rerouted to serve customers, noone has tapped yet. The 14 for example runs along the F4 and I am not an expert on that line, but if it runs like the other THE BUS routes then it probably runs a few minutes before an F4 comes, which in this instance would be a good thing.
Actually I have sent a complaint letter to the county executive and where did that get me............it was sent to THE BUS and I never got a reply back.
I think for PG to change themselves on stuff like transit, they have to start listening to their constituents more. I have said that THE BUS has a HUGE opportunity to have more bus routes, improve it's service and create the situation to gain more riders.
Gosh, it's a shame that PG County is set up in such a manner. It is just sooooo ripe for good development in land use and transit, and I'm sorry to learn that your government officials don't care as much as they should. I guess with PA having most of its strength in smaller townships and boroughs, rather than just the county, it can be a bit different. I'm still learning, though!
Is there a flaw in how WMATA is funded, where they can't provide adequate service where a THE BUS route running along a WMATA route, improving the general headways, isn't necessary? It seems like WMATA has set itself up to be a VERY expensive system (which makes sense since it serves our nation's capital), but it can't keep things in decent repair and accomodate the growth of the area.
Ok you guys talk about "Oh why can't WMATA increase service before they start buying fancy buses?" Didn't you guys say that WMATA isn't in charge of the service? It's up to the county, city government etc. I'm not going to say the new metrobus is perfect but it's improving somethings. It's going to take a while for things to get fixed. We can't all just assume it's going to be fixed in a snap.
More frequent service + more people = more crowding which means and even bigger problems. That's why the 30s got split to begin with. It's not Catoe's fault that some things just can't be fixed overnight you have to give it a lot more time. Not taking up for him or anything, but give him a break. He's doing all he can to try to fix what's broken.
Now for service in PG. I would recommend another T/A be bought about. The Bus is just not working and Metro shouldn't have to be "Real PG County Transit". The PG government should grant The Bus some money so they can have better service, beter buses etc.
Finally I'm sorry for my attitude towards some of you guys. I'm sorry and I got carried away but please I deserve as much respect as the rest of ya'll.
Quote from: LandoverDivision on November 21, 2009, 02:53:21 PM
Ok you guys talk about "Oh why can't WMATA increase service before they start buying fancy buses?" Didn't you guys say that WMATA isn't in charge of the service? It's up to the county, city government etc. I'm not going to say the new metrobus is perfect but it's improving somethings. It's going to take a while for things to get fixed. We can't all just assume it's going to be fixed in a snap.
More frequent service + more people = more crowding which means and even bigger problems. That's why the 30s got split to begin with. It's not Catoe's fault that some things just can't be fixed overnight you have to give it a lot more time. Not taking up for him or anything, but give him a break. He's doing all he can to try to fix what's broken.
Now for service in PG. I would recommend another T/A be bought about. The Bus is just not working and Metro shouldn't have to be "Real PG County Transit". The PG government should grant The Bus some money so they can have better service, beter buses etc.
Finally I'm sorry for my attitude towards some of you guys. I'm sorry and I got carried away but please I deserve as much respect as the rest of ya'll.
What factual evidence (real studies, reports, and the like) do you have to back your claim? I'm finding it hard to believe you think more frequent service means more crowding. You need to look at services in other cities to see that more frequent service supports the capacities and doesn't lead to more crowding. Mainly look at New York City and Toronto for example. They have ridership statistics and data in regards to it.
I think PG county officials need to ride THE BUS, look at its routes, listen to passengers. They might keep the same mentality when it comes to bus service, but with enough people complaining and raising hell, maybe they might change their minds. There are SO many opportunities for THE BUS to get into. On big opportunity is the ever growing community of Springdale. There is a bus that goes there, but it seems to be only a loop line. What about a route that goes from Largo Town Center Station through Springdale, to New Carrollton. When people have to ride the F14 and then walk about 30 minutes to get home, that's not right.
If I haven't said, when you border all of the major population areas, in the DC area, and have the transportation system you have, how are you going to encourage population growth, business growth and "livable communities". That phrase is so incomplete without a strong transit infrastructure. Montgomery County is planning light rail in upper Montgomery County, the ICC mainly runs through Montgomery County and the Purple line is mainly running through Montgomery County into PG County. Now PG has something to do with these projects, but where is PG's plan for improved transit. It's sad when at a WMATA forum for improve transit, RIDE ON was representing itself, THE BUS was nowhere to be found and boys and girls here's the shock.............IT WAS HELD IN PG COUNTY. One person mentioned that when they spoke and an applause broke out. Why is it that the University of Maryland was planning to use their buses to start a circulator service when at the least it should be a cooperation between the county and the university, if not the county to provide and initiate such service.
When will the government officials in PG get their heads out of their ass and improve WMATA bus and THE BUS service in PG, when traffic gets so worse that traffic is jammed in the midday.
On frequent service, some drivers, I think don't want to turn down passengers and they keep stopping and stopping picking up more passengers making a bus more full. Most cities have it in their signs that there is another bus coming, why can't WMATA do that. There is one bus packed and then the next bus right behind it is practically empty. It may sound stupid but having a route that has not-quite-limited service is an idea to try. Take the 32 for instance, notoriously known for being late. We take the 32, keep the route number and seperate it into mini-limited lines. There would be a A-stop, B stop and C stop, and mark the stops along with way with an A stop only label, a B stop only label and a C stop label. Buses marked 32 A stop would only stop at A stops and not at any B or C stops. Same thing for B and for C stop bus runs. Test a route.......maybe the 32 to see if it works and if it does then apply it to other heavy, high frequency routes and increase routes that need increase as such. Just a suggestion.
Basicly he just proved his point when he said look at the 30s. You have to be a daily rider to understand where people come from when they say "The route needs a service increase or artics or whatever". WES if you're talking about the 32 THE BUS route then yes 32A or a 32B is a good idea, but the 32 WMATA needs both increase of service and maybe 1 or 2 artics, maybe, And I don't need paperwork, or study a route, bump that talk to the actual riders who ride lines such as the 32, F4 etc people who ride these routes, including myself, I hear people say " oh this bus need to run better" or " this route needs longer buses" etc on routes such the W4, F4, P12, C22 and so fourth. So like WES says the PG county officials need to get their heads out of their (you know the word) and improve the service.
Quote from: Annex4421 on November 21, 2009, 11:40:50 PM
Basicly he just proved his point when he said look at the 30s. You have to be a daily rider to understand where people come from when they say "The route needs a service increase or artics or whatever". WES if you're talking about the 32 THE BUS route then yes 32A or a 32B is a good idea, but the 32 WMATA needs both increase of service and maybe 1 or 2 artics, maybe, And I don't need paperwork, or study a route, bump that talk to the actual riders who ride lines such as the 32, F4 etc people who ride these routes, including myself, I hear people say " oh this bus need to run better" or " this route needs longer buses" etc on routes such the W4, F4, P12, C22 and so fourth. So like WES says the PG county officials need to get their heads out of their (you know the word) and improve the service.
Artics on the 30s is very hard to do given the space constraints along Wisconsin Avenue and other parts of the 30s alongside the tight turns in Southeast. Also, at Friendship Heights, the back end of a tic would pose a hazard blocking the way for the N, E6, and the Friendship Heights Shuttle. As for increasing service, Western can only do as much with the runs they have on the 30s. If they do get help, it gets to a point where is another route going to lose service just so this route can gain service.
As for PG county, try to see if Jack Johnson really gives a damn about transit in the county. For a county like PG to have an inadequate transportation system that lacks weekend service for the county system and late night service throughout just doesn't cut it. I know MTA gives funds to the county but where the heck is it going (or who).
Quote from: 79MetroExtraMD on November 22, 2009, 12:35:22 AM
As for PG county, try to see if Jack Johnson really gives a damn about transit in the county. For a county like PG to have an inadequate transportation system that lacks weekend service for the county system and late night service throughout just doesn't cut it. I know MTA gives funds to the county but where the heck is it going (or who).
I totally agree with this right here. Another problem is that the average Joe believes that the lack of bus service in PG county is WMATA's doing (or shortcoming). Those who are in power, like Jack and company don't care. They don't need mass transit and won't be caught dead on a bus and the public is not holding him accountable, so he continues to get a pass.
But, why was WMATAbus even created if everything falls to the municipalities to provide their own transit services, with a couple of WMATAbus routes for good measure? As much as I love Ride On, DASH, the existance of ART and the Fairfax, (and PG's latest Gillig Phantoms - woo!) it does make one scratch his head.
It kinda reminds me of the NYers and the complaints about LI Bus.
It seems like PG County needs a Transporation Management Association :). WMATA's starting to make SEPTA look good!
Aren't most of the suburban TA's reason for existence to preserve service WMATA would have axed (or did axe) once Metro came in and/or to run routes WMATA didn't want to create or run. I seem to remember the former being the MO for DASH's birth and the latter as the MO for Ride On, Connector, and ART.
Quote from: 79MetroExtraMD on November 21, 2009, 10:09:54 PM
What factual evidence (real studies, reports, and the like) do you have to back your claim? I'm finding it hard to believe you think more frequent service means more crowding. You need to look at services in other cities to see that more frequent service supports the capacities and doesn't lead to more crowding. Mainly look at New York City and Toronto for example. They have ridership statistics and data in regards to it.
It's called I've been riding the bus just about everyday for...I don't know....ALL MY LIFE. A lot of people here drive for a reason. Service is awful here. let's say service does increase here. More drivers will found out about the service. So now you're going to have regular bus riders plus people who drive crowding the bus. More service, more people. I don't need statistics to prove my point because I know this from fact. It's called riding with people who actually hates service here and would prefere to drive because of bad service. And statistics aren't always right. Example, you think it's about 9 billion people in the world right? Wrong. Because babies are born every minute. It could be 20 billion people here but we don't know. Anyways, more service could cause more issues. Splits, a higher demand for express routes, limited stop routes etc. Need I say more? I think not.
Maybe you could, because I for one can't figure out what you're trying to get at. Are you saying WMATA *shouldn't* increase service because it would cause more people to ride the bus, which apparently is a bad thing?
Also, I've never heard 9 billion as a population figure for this particular decade, maybe 2050 but I thought we were closer to 7 billion.
More frequent service, in a way, is just not going to cut it. Artics is the way to go. The End.
There are (supposetly) over 9 billion now. But again, babies are born every minute so no one knows the exact population now.
Quote from: LandoverDivision on November 23, 2009, 05:53:35 PM
Example, you think it's about 9 billion people in the world right? Wrong. Because babies are born every minute. It could be 20 billion people here but we don't know. Anyways, more service could cause more issues. Splits, a higher demand for express routes, limited stop routes etc. Need I say more? I think not.
Don't forget. While they're babies continuously being born, they're also people dying too. Are you saying the number of births are clearly outpacing the number of deaths?
Let's say WMATA (and other transit agencies) adopt your approach and throw artics everywhere. You state that with increased service, it'll bring more riders (which I though was at least one goal) as they learn of the service increase. What do you envision happening if there were artics all over? By your theory one could also expect ridership to grow since the buses will be able to accomodate more passengers. Eventually those artics will be full. Then what?
Quote from: WayneNYC on November 23, 2009, 07:07:17 PM
Quote from: LandoverDivision on November 23, 2009, 05:53:35 PM
Example, you think it's about 9 billion people in the world right? Wrong. Because babies are born every minute. It could be 20 billion people here but we don't know. Anyways, more service could cause more issues. Splits, a higher demand for express routes, limited stop routes etc. Need I say more? I think not.
Don't forget. While they're babies continuously being born, they're also people dying too. Are you saying the number of births are clearly outpacing the number of deaths?
Let's say WMATA (and other transit agencies) adopt your approach and throw artics everywhere. You state that with increased service, it'll bring more riders (which I though was at least one goal) as they learn of the service increase. What do you envision happening if there were artics all over? By your theory one could also expect ridership to grow since the buses will be able to accomodate more passengers. Eventually those artics will be full. Then what?
No one said throw artics all over the place. Put them on routes that could use them. More frequent service isn't going to work either so what else is there to do? People stand up for hours (at times) waiting for the bus. At least everyone is able to get a seat on artics rather than cramping on a 40 foot. Artics at times go to waste here so they could just put those (at least) on routes that need them. That will save them money.
Think about this at least. One 40 foot breaks down. Another is right behind it. Now you've got an extremely packed bus. When instead, an artic could be on it giving those who were on the bus in front and the ones who were already on the bus a seat.
Those artics might get full but at least there is less of a problem then there would be on a 40 foot. Again not saying every route needs them, but a lot of them do.
Births and deaths happen every minute. All I'm saying is noone knows the exact population but cencus show that it maybe 9 billion people in the world now.
I don't think there's any way 3 billion people could be born in less than 10 years. Census says a bit shy of 7 billion: http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html
BUT THIS IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT! Let's talk about buses! I've never heard anyone say adding service was a bad thing, and I've definitely never heard anyone saying that adding service doesn't increase capacity. You're assuming that ridership is going to grow exponentially - while your theory makes sense that ridership would increase when service is added, it's not necessarily logical or reasonable to say that it's not going to help and that ridership is going to grow _so much_ that that new service isn't going to help *at all*; there's a limit to the amount of people who would ride any particular route.
Quote from: LandoverDivision on November 23, 2009, 07:16:40 PM
No one said throw artics all over the place. Put them on routes that could use them. More frequent service isn't going to work either so what else is there to do? People stand up for hours (at times) waiting for the bus. At least everyone is able to get a seat on artics rather than cramping on a 40 foot. Artics at times go to waste here so they could just put those (at least) on routes that need them. That will save them money.
Think about this at least. One 40 foot breaks down. Another is right behind it. Now you've got an extremely packed bus. When instead, an artic could be on it giving those who were on the bus in front and the ones who were already on the bus a seat.
Those artics might get full but at least there is less of a problem then there would be on a 40 foot. Again not saying every route needs them, but a lot of them do.
Births and deaths happen every minute. All I'm saying is noone knows the exact population but cencus show that it maybe 9 billion people in the world now.
You seem to have this well-researched. By your own admission: More service won't work and artics are the way to go. In your example of the 40-footer suffering a mechanical versus an artic... One, you're assuming that the artic is also not crowded, which is not always the case. Two - If the route doesn't have frequent service and an artic goes down, it's very likely that that next bus will get crowded. The way I see it is that you'd rather have longer headways for a larger bus versus more standard buses on shorter headways. I don't see where the artics are necessarily the better way to go. Also - if artics are the answer, it seems that you have the answer and the transit agencies have yet to figure this out.
Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against artics, and they have their obvious advantages, but I'm not seeing where replacing standard buses with artics will necessarily solve the crowding issues. In my opinion, it's clear that more planning has to go into such moves, which is probably one reason why transit agencies employ transit planners.
Also - What's wrong with ridership growing. Again, that's why they have planning departments.
Isn't it fact that in New York, those ridiculously crowded, yet frequently operating, routes became worse with the implementation of artics? Not only do you have the 3 artics per 4 standard bus policy, but while each bus has more room, there are less doors. This means more dwell time as people push their way through crowds.
However, as much as I would love to deal with an artic on the F4, more service would be nice. I can't fathom the reasoning (other than "we're broke) behind having the F4 run every 20 minutes midday, with an Orion VI or these New Flyer low floors, and the bus is ready to burst open with people!
Thank goodness I "live" right outside of DC and close enough to Montgomery County so I can walk to Ride On and take advantage of good metrobus service. The route that runs right down the street has horrendous service as a PG route!
Quote from: Tritransit Area on November 24, 2009, 12:05:12 AM
Isn't it fact that in New York, those ridiculously crowded, yet frequently operating, routes became worse with the implementation of artics? Not only do you have the 3 artics per 4 standard bus policy, but while each bus has more room, there are less doors. This means more dwell time as people push their way through crowds.
Yes, the problem in NYC is more dwell times. It's increased because the time it takes for the farebox to swallow the MetroCard and spit it out again. They are rather slow on Manhattan crosstown routes. Other than this stuff, the artics have pretty much been good for NYCTA.
Quote from: LandoverDivision on November 23, 2009, 07:16:40 PM
Don't forget. While they're babies continuously being born, they're also people dying too. Are you saying the number of births are clearly outpacing the number of deaths?
No one said throw artics all over the place. Put them on routes that could use them. More frequent service isn't going to work either so what else is there to do? People stand up for hours (at times) waiting for the bus. At least everyone is able to get a seat on artics rather than cramping on a 40 foot. Artics at times go to waste here so they could just put those (at least) on routes that need them. That will save them money.
Think about this at least. One 40 foot breaks down. Another is right behind it. Now you've got an extremely packed bus. When instead, an artic could be on it giving those who were on the bus in front and the ones who were already on the bus a seat.
Those artics might get full but at least there is less of a problem then there would be on a 40 foot. Again not saying every route needs them, but a lot of them do.
Wait, fellow Brandon. Why do you think that a crammed 40 foot bus would equate to an artic with seats? At best, you would have a bus with more standing room and a few less standees.
From my [limited] experience with the F4/6, it needs more frequent service with a few well placed artic runs to boot! It might even be able to use "Metro Extra/Express" service as well...
Quote from: WayneNYC on November 24, 2009, 12:16:33 AM
Quote from: Tritransit Area on November 24, 2009, 12:05:12 AM
Isn't it fact that in New York, those ridiculously crowded, yet frequently operating, routes became worse with the implementation of artics? Not only do you have the 3 artics per 4 standard bus policy, but while each bus has more room, there are less doors. This means more dwell time as people push their way through crowds.
Yes, the problem in NYC is more dwell times. It's increased because the time it takes for the farebox to swallow the MetroCard and spit it out again. They are rather slow on Manhattan crosstown routes. Other than this stuff, the artics have pretty much been good for NYCTA.
You hit it right on the nose! The heavy traffic on the crosstown routes plus the Metrocard processing dwell times equal disaster regardless of if a bus is an artic or not. It makes me wonder that
when if* the MTA ever goes to a smart card system if schedulers will have to adjust their schedules to reflect the time savings smart cards would bring.
Back on topic, if memory serves me right the MBTA didn't adjust the schedules for artics when their original Neo LF artics came in for the SL4/39 and I wouldn't think they'd adjust the schedules for whatever routes get their DE60LFR's when they arrive next year since they're direct RTS replacements. I think with the nominal difference in seating between a HF 40' bus and an LF artic, the era of reducing service for artics might be ending...for a while at least.
* Anyone who lives or has lived in New York, City or state, knows that there is no "when" when it comes to planning things ;)
If the buses are not running on schedule because of the Metrocards, then they'd probably at best just run on time with the smart cards. It's a fatal flaw to take out a ton of time because of the prospect of a faster boarding time with the smart cards. As long as a passenger has to pass through the farebox and do something with it, there isn't going to be a lot of savings. Until you go to an all off-board fare collection system, you won't see a significant amount of savings in running time.
I have to agree. The swallowing of MetroCard can be slow, plus students and empolyees MetroCard must be dipped too. In the old days they were flash passes. A lot of times what adds to NYC dwell times is that people insert a MetroCard that has an insufficient balance. Then they'll have to try 2 or 3 more before finally scoring. Then you have those who want to insert the MetroCard the wrong way.
The TA's new BRT service on the Bx12 (they call it Select Bus Service) does seem to be better. The buses don't linger long at all.
Whatever you do, don't drive in front of one at night. Those flashing blue lights are bright as heck and there's another emergency vehicle type blue strobe light inside at the top of the windshield. I learned the hard way:-).
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s178/WayneJay/NYCTA/CSC_0043.jpg)