WMATA Gave Back all of the LFAs

[Flxible]

Ken why are so against WMATA getting more tics? If anything they should've gotten more tics we had this talk before about how Landover could use some tics and how the service increase isn't in mind anymore. As for the 3 door tic thing No wont happen WMATA isnt that bright of a TA but they're not stupid either why would you waste seats just to add another door? plus wouldn't that door cost extra? But Ken seriously nobody is saying "Lets get 500 tics and throw them everywhere" we're just saying give them to those bases that needs them in reality ALL bases need tics in a way but of course some can't fit them. But come on Bladensburg barely uses the tics even now that the BRTs on the X2...Only on weekdays what about Saturday? even Northern isn't using their tics on Saturdays either.

Artics are rarely used to actually increase service, but rather to operate the same amount of capacity with fewer buses, often resulting in longer waits for passengers and more delays.  Generally, this is how WMATA employs its artics, take a look at the Y routes in Montgomery County and the 70 in DC.  The 70 is a busier route than the Ss and 50s, but operates fewer trips because it is an articulated route. 

The two door models exacerbate these issues on account of having a longer vehicle but the same amount of space for ingress and egress.  If you want to see how artics can deteriorate service on a bus route, just take a look at the M79 in New York City.  Under the right conditions, it can be faster to WALK across Central Park than it is to take the bus.  I have yet to ride Jerusalem's new 4 door articulated bus but I am pretty sure the loss of seats for the 4th door is minimal.

I agree.  A three-door tic is logical in that it reduces dwell time and increases passenger flow.  To a degree, it's like having an Alstom car that runs on the streets.

[Scrabbleship]

Ken why are so against WMATA getting more tics? If anything they should've gotten more tics we had this talk before about how Landover could use some tics and how the service increase isn't in mind anymore. As for the 3 door tic thing No wont happen WMATA isnt that bright of a TA but they're not stupid either why would you waste seats just to add another door? plus wouldn't that door cost extra? But Ken seriously nobody is saying "Lets get 500 tics and throw them everywhere" we're just saying give them to those bases that needs them in reality ALL bases need tics in a way but of course some can't fit them. But come on Bladensburg barely uses the tics even now that the BRTs on the X2...Only on weekdays what about Saturday? even Northern isn't using their tics on Saturdays either.

Artics are rarely used to actually increase service, but rather to operate the same amount of capacity with fewer buses, often resulting in longer waits for passengers and more delays.  Generally, this is how WMATA employs its artics, take a look at the Y routes in Montgomery County and the 70 in DC.  The 70 is a busier route than the Ss and 50s, but operates fewer trips because it is an articulated route. 

The two door models exacerbate these issues on account of having a longer vehicle but the same amount of space for ingress and egress.  If you want to see how artics can deteriorate service on a bus route, just take a look at the M79 in New York City.  Under the right conditions, it can be faster to WALK across Central Park than it is to take the bus.  I have yet to ride Jerusalem's new 4 door articulated bus but I am pretty sure the loss of seats for the 4th door is minimal.

I agree.  A three-door tic is logical in that it reduces dwell time and increases passenger flow.  To a degree, it's like having an Alstom car that runs on the streets.

If three-door artics are so logical, I wonder why they make up a minority of US agency orders. I know MBTA, Muni, LACMTA, MTS, AC Transit (pre-Van Hool), Chapel Hill, Cleveland RTA, and the SBS LFS's at MTA in NYC have three-doors, but outside of colleges I can't think of much else. I'd guess fare evasion fears but Muni is probably the biggest hub for that and they've had 3-door tics since the puller-engine era.

If the Canadian agencies that are retiring early D60LF's didn't have such issues, I'd stand by my want for WMATA to buy a small amount as a pilot to see how they'd work.

[WMATAGMOAGH]

I think US agencies shy away from 3 door artics out of fare evasion concerns.

[Scrabbleship]

I think US agencies shy away from 3 door artics out of fare evasion concerns.

Muni probably has one of the highest fare evasion rates in the US and they've always have had 3-door artics. Many of the key artic routes at LACMTA and MBTA run through also are areas where fare evasion can be a bit high (and I'm talking local routes, not Metro Rapid or Silver Line). I think something else may be at play.

[RailBus63]

I think US agencies shy away from 3 door artics out of fare evasion concerns.

Muni probably has one of the highest fare evasion rates in the US and they've always have had 3-door artics.

I'm convinced that nobody cares about fare evasion in San Francisco and it's just part of the local culture by now.

Many of the key artic routes at LACMTA and MBTA run through also are areas where fare evasion can be a bit high (and I'm talking local routes, not Metro Rapid or Silver Line). I think something else may be at play.

The buses on Boston's MBTA have driver-controlled rear doors, so there is less concern about fare evasion from some passenger opening the door on their own for others (although it does happen sometimes if the driver opens all doors at a busy stop).

[Scrabbleship]

I think US agencies shy away from 3 door artics out of fare evasion concerns.

Muni probably has one of the highest fare evasion rates in the US and they've always have had 3-door artics.

I'm convinced that nobody cares about fare evasion in San Francisco and it's just part of the local culture by now.

Many of the key artic routes at LACMTA and MBTA run through also are areas where fare evasion can be a bit high (and I'm talking local routes, not Metro Rapid or Silver Line). I think something else may be at play.

The buses on Boston's MBTA have driver-controlled rear doors, so there is less concern about fare evasion from some passenger opening the door on their own for others (although it does happen sometimes if the driver opens all doors at a busy stop).

Fare Evasion on Muni = Eating and Drinking on WMATA. Something illegal that isn't enforced because enforcing it would take too much effort.

I thought most artics made in the last decade (with exceptions such as MTA's D60HF's and Muni's Neoplan 460's) have had driver-controlled rear doors. Even with them, there are still odd cases like the man in a suit who boarded through the rear door of a PACKED 42LFA on the S9 at 16th & U I saw last week.

[Perry]

We have three door artics and don't have a fare evasion problem because of that.  Fare evasaion happens whether you have one door, two door or three doors.  The only way to prevent it is to have more enforcement and keep the operators out of it.  Their job is to drive, not to get into an argument over a $2 fare.  We have security that rides on random routes and either gets the passengers to pay or they get a citation.

That being said, is it worth spending a dollar to chase a dime? Sometimes you have to accept a certain amount of fare evasion because there will never be 100% compliance and to spend millions on fare enforcement to get a small number of that back sometimes isn't worth it.

[Tristan]

Although Perry you could make the argument that the dollar spent on the dime prevents many other dollars from being lost.  How much money would WMATA lose if they had Muni-esque fare collection?

Being a devil's advocate for no reason :-)